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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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David Ogden Stiers |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | Exactly for some people is a family name as it was his mother's maiden name... but that is not the case for him... Instead his family name (surname) is Stiers... they just decided to give him Ogden for his middle name.
so in this case... if we go to 2 name field it would be David Ogden / Stiers.... as it is now it would be David / Ogden / Stiers
Just because Ogden is a Surname for some don't mean it is for David Ogden Stiers. That is like saying...
Actress Pamela Sue Martin (played Nancy Drew in the '60s)... Martin is a Surname... there is proof of that... so that means it should be / / Martin Sheen because both Martin and Sheen is a surname for someone else. | | | Pete | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote: It's been explained repeatedly for years, Tim. But its not what you want to hear, nor from whom you want to hear it from, but that does not invalidate the answer. nor that one has been provided and explained. Please point me to that answer in the rules. It just isn't there. I know you don't have a problem - neither have I. The result, however, is a mess in the database, and ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. Again, and as I said above as well: I perfectly understand why this is such a disaster, and you may understand it as well, but you and I understanding the problem doesn't equal a solution. Your stance on this hasn't changed for years, mine hasn't either. We both understood the problem then, and we both understand it now. Over those past few years, though, things haven't improved, and the database still contains pointless dual entries for every three-piece name out there.
You can try and turn this into another dig at me, but the fact of the matter is that it's not. As I said: we desperately need to come up with something that causes ALL users, throughout the various regions and localities, and burdened with different cultural backgrounds - and including those that don't regularly visit these forums, to automatically do it the exact same way. That's what we need. Tim: I am not digging at you, that is not my objective. I merely stated that this has been clarified for years on a repetitive basis. I am not digging at you when I factually state that you resist because you don't like the messenger. Whether you like the message or not I have no idea, but you clearly want the messenger shot.<shrugs> I can only TRY and offer assistance, based on my fist hand knowledge. And all the desire to shoot the messenger has doen is result in continuing chaos. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote: Just because it was a family name for his mother, doesn't make it a family name for him - it was given, not inherited. If what you say is true, as I think it is, then going from 3 to 2 fields doesn't make it any simpler as we still need to know if a name is part of the given names or of the surname for correct parsing. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | Right... I don't see how going to a 2 name field is any help when it comes to parsing... as you still need to know where the name(s) in the center goes. | | | Pete |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote: Quoting T!M:
Quote: I'd have a hard time seeing "Ogden" as a "given name" - we even know for a fact that it's not. Wikipedia: "A given name is a name given to a person, as opposed to an inherited one such as a family name." Now that's the kind of definition I can work with! I think the problem occurs [...] Just as a clarification: there were quite a few conditions preceding that comment of mine that you quoted. It was all a big "if, then"-statement - one I still stand by, though: if exactly those conditions were met, then I would feel "Ogden" belonged in the second field. Quoting surfeur51: Quote: [...] the correct parsing [...] All that talk about the "correct" parsing is giving me headaches. IMHO, and I've been saying that for years now, this is not so much about what I, you or anyone else deems "correct", it's about getting everyone on the same page. If Ken decides on a standard, then that is, by definition, the only "correct" way to do it for DVD Profiler purposes. What we need is something that causes ALL users, throughout the various regions and localities, burdened with different cultural backgrounds, and no matter whether they're frequent forum visitors or not, to parse a given name in exactly the same way. Yes, a standard like that would cause each of us to have a few names we'd rather have parsed differently (either way), but it WOULD have us all on the same page immediately. That, to me, is worth much more than my, yours, or anyone's alledged "correctness" - especially knowing that neither side will ever give in anyway. If only we'd have treated "common names" differently: if those had been in the "actorID658463"-format, we'd have no parsing problems whatsoever, because all actual names would be in the "credited as" field. And then we'd have no problem with people complaining about the "correct" way of entering of the common name, as we have now. Think about that comparison for a minute: just as it doesn't really matter which common name we pick, as long as we all pick the same one, it really doesn't matter which way of parsing we apply to the common name, as long we all pick the same way. There's the key. | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Think about that comparison for a minute: just as it doesn't really matter which common name we pick, as long as we all pick the same one, it really doesn't matter which way of parsing we apply to the common name, as long we all pick the same way. There's the key. Check. And since we're on the road to force everything to a standard these days, like with "Jr." suffixes without a comma and second initials always thrown into the middle field, I say separate all "normal" given names from maiden and family names after eliminating the middle field and ignore the fact this ain't correct. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands | | | Last edited: by Daddy DVD |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote: Quoting northbloke:
Quote: Just because it was a family name for his mother, doesn't make it a family name for him - it was given, not inherited. If what you say is true, as I think it is, then going from 3 to 2 fields doesn't make it any simpler as we still need to know if a name is part of the given names or of the surname for correct parsing. Martin: Please explain to me the importance of parsing. This isn't NAMEProfiler, it's DVDProfiler. No matter what David /Ogden /Stiers or European parsing appears exactly as it does On Screen. Now if you want to argue Ogden in the first name field, then we will fight. But I really don't comprehend the relevance of parsing, except as it relates to linking. Why just because Euros have a name standard, which I doubt exists in reality, why would it apply automatically to someone who is not born in Europe. My suspicion is that there are as many Europeans who follow their own personal name pattern, as opposed to some alleged societally imposed standard as there are in the states.Do they get jailed if they don't follow the standard? I just don't understand the conundrim here. I don't worry about parsing and all my names link up just fine, thank you very much. I use the default that i described three years ago, its not that important to me to go rummaging around trying to figure out how a name should be parsed, I care that it LOOKS similar to the data On Screen. Should you or someone else provide documentation that a name should parsed in a specific manner, I edit the name accordingly, no big deal. Like I said wec aren't profiling names, we are profiling credits, Tghis argument would not go away regardless of how many fields we used, I can do it in One, Two or5 Three fields. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Normal by whose standards, Martin. Don't forget this is an American-based program, soo i hardly think it would be appropriate to apply Jovian naming standards to an American based program.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote: But I really don't comprehend the relevance of parsing, except as it relates to linking. So you do understand the relevance? Because that's it. Parsing doesn't just "relate" to linking: our free-for-all approach to it mostly serves to BREAK linking. As pointed out time and time again: the database still contains dual entries for essentially EVERY three-piece name out there, and there's been no sign of improvement over the past few years. It's nice that you personally don't have a problem. I don't either. Basically, we all do as we please - isn't that what you're saying? I understand how that works wonders for every individual user, yes. But the database as a whole is still a mess, though, and while you're apparently not terribly concerned about that, I am. | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote: Quoting surfeur51:
Quote: Once again, two or three fields is exactly the same. We have to decide where to put the "middle" name if it exists, and no rule will ever be able to solve that problem. No, the problem would be solved if there was a rule that said to put all given names in the first field and all family names in the last. The only problem we could have is if the middle parts are only initials and we don't know if they represent a given or family name, but we could tackle that with a rule that said to always put those initials in the first field. Regardless of what names you put on the fields, "David//Ogden Stiers" is wrong. | | | Hal |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote: Quoting surfeur51:
Quote: Do you really think that John/Fitzgerald Kennedy would be correct It would be the correct separation of given and family names. To be able to find him by his last name instead of his middle name however I agree with you that we need to have a checkbox or a sort field. And it would make the database totally useless. Are you serious that you actually support this? | | | Hal |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,414 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote: We don't intend to move to a single name field since it would reduce functionality as others have mentioned. However, I don't see a problem with moving to a two-field name, which would reduce (although not eliminate) parsing disputes. Thoughts? A two name field wouldn't solve any of these issues as the problem of which name(s) belong in the last name field will still be there.
Using this name as an example, would it be 'David Ogden/Stiers' or 'David/Ogden Stiers'?
What would solve this issue is to create a base standard, in the rules, with deviation allowed with documentation. JMHO I agree with Unicus on the two name field; it doesn't solve these issues and creates problems of its own. Stick with the 3 fields. I personally don't see how you'll ever establish a parsing rule that will satisfy all the cultural norms out there, but if someone wants to try I'll bring the popcorn. | | | "This movie has warped my fragile little mind." |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting gardibolt: Quote: I personally don't see how you'll ever establish a parsing rule that will satisfy all the cultural norms out there And indeed: it doesn't exist. That's about the one thing that is absolutely clear after repeatedly discussing this for years. Which is why we should move on to the next best thing: one that DOESN'T satisfy all the cultural norms out there. As pointed out time and time again, it really doesn't matter WHAT we settle on, as long we settle on SOMETHING. | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote: But I really don't comprehend the relevance of parsing, except as it relates to linking. So you do understand the relevance? Because that's it. Parsing doesn't just "relate" to linking: the free-for-all approach to it mostly serves to BREAK linking. As pointed out time and time again: the database still contains dual entries for essentially EVERY three-piece name out there, and there's been no sign of improvement over the past few years. It's nice that you personally don't have a problem. I don't either. Basically, we all do as we please - isn't that what you're saying? I understand how that works wonders for every individual user, yes. But the database as a whole is still a mess, though, and while you're apparently not terribly concerned about that, I am. Parsing also affects searches. If I'm looking for David Ogden Stiers, I'm gonna look under the S's not the O's. | | | Hal |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: Parsing also affects searches. If I'm looking for David Ogden Stiers, I'm gonna look under the S's not the O's. And someone else might do it the other way round. Nothing new there. Generally speaking, the program should, of course, be able to find him using any part of the name. For instance, if I'm looking for Helena Bonham Carter, I want her to show up when I'm looking for "Bonham", but also when I'm looking for "Carter". | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 906 |
| Posted: | | | | Then the best thing would be to parse it Helena/Bonham/Carter, just ignore the labels. Problem solved
I think Hal suggested this a lot of pages ago (correct me if I misunderstood your suggestion, Hal) | | | The colour of her eyes, were the colour of insanity |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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