Quoting skipnet50:

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i will not even begin to address.

Please stick to that promise. As you've shown here over and over again, you don't have a clue about database design (which self-proclaimed "database expert" would happily enter the role name in the name field and vice versa?), and you obviously wouldn't understand the intent of the rules if it slapped you in the face (we're striving for accurate and usable data, not just dropping pieces of data into the wrong fields trying to deal with on-screen formatting, rendering the data completely useless). The matter has been settled by Ken, not just once, but twice, with a third comment thrown in about that particular 'Miss Congeniality 2' example. I've never seen such a sore loser before in my life.

Everything that can possibly be said on the subject has been said, Ken has settled this several times now, and I really don't feel like starting over AGAIN. Let me just quote James' excellent post from page four:

Quoting m.cellophane:

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I agree with T!M and I appreciate that he had the energy to put forth a good argument here.

Any time that a user thinks that the rules force them to enter data backwards, then we have a problem. "Himself" is not a name by any definition. Sorry. It's just not. "Common sense" is "sound practical judgment" which is independent of training or specific knowledge. There are sure to be variations, but they have to be both sound and practical.

Common sense, based on practical judgment, tells one to put the name "Robert Klein" in the name field and "Himself" in the role field. There aren't varities of common sense that would call for the reverse, because it's not practical for the use of the program to put "Himself" in the Credited As for the reasons T!M has described.

Those that insist on doing it that way are doing so in spite of the impracticality. That's not common sense. That's following a narrow interpretation of the rules and adding bits about positional columns, which aren't in the rules, and adding bits about recreating the look of the credits as a whole, which also aren't in the rules. It also involves saying that a name isn't a name when it's in a different column from other names. Again, this is not in the rules.

The rules call for names in the name field and roles in the role field. With roles where someone plays themself and the name and role are reversed in the columns, there's no directive in the rules other than to put the name in the name field and the role in the role field. If you think the rules direct that, please respond and quote the rules directly. You won't find it:

"List names exactly as they are in the credits" refers to the spelling of the name. That's the context in which it's used in the rules. There's nothing positional there or anywhere else in the rules.

"Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name." If you want to put "Himself" in the "Credited As" you have to be able to say that "Himself" is a name. It's not; therefore, you can't do this.

"To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool." As T!M has pointed out, if "Himself" is used as the "Credited As" for someone with a single credit, then the rules require that "Himself" is the common name. This is further proof that "Himself" cannot be used as a "Credited As" name.

"For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited." The "order" referred to here is the order in which a name appears in relation to other names; therefore, it directs which name is entered first, second, third, etc in the credits for the program. This is not a directive about column ordering.

If you feel that it is a directive about column ordering, what do you do when a set of credits transitions from role on the left and name on the right to a two-column block of names under a header? Do you declare the names on the left to be roles played by the names on the right? Hopefully you discern that both columns contain names.

Followed by Ken's comments:

Quoting Ken Cole:

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My thought on this is that if the cast listing is explicit, as in "Himself as Bob Smith", or "Bob Smith played by Himself", then the Credited As field should be used to preserve intent.  However, if the only indication of Name/Role is left/right, I would lean towards allowing the credit to be entered as name: "Bob Smith", role: "Himself"

Quoting Ken Cole:

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To clarify, in this case the correct entry has Ida Flammenbaum as the actress, "Herself" as the role.

And, after it turned out that the 'Miss Congeniality' credit was more complicated due to it being some kind of joke credit as well, a third comment:

Quoting Ken Cole:

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Sandra Bullock [Ida Flammenbaum] as Herself is correct.

I really don't know what else I can add. I'm afraid you've finally shown your true colors: you don't actually care about accuracy at all, and instead you seem to be looking for ways to mess up our data beyond any form of usability. And even worse: despite crystal clear comments from Ken, you still feel entirely entitled to voting and contributing according to your own personal preferences - destructive as they may be. Nice signal to others - you mean we can all basically do as we please?    I don't know how others feel, but I really don't see how I can ever take you serious again after all this.

I'll stick with Ken's solution, thank you.  Your method ("You simply list Sandra AS Ida(uncredited) that is what the correct listing shoulkd be by DEFINITION. We cross refernce back Ida who is credited as herself and you also have your alias data.") sounds pretty disastrous, if you ask me.

As for the rest - you're now trying to make this about this one particular example, while the thread was essentially about "regular" reversed himself/herself credits. You're currently voting against such a correction as well, in spite of two crystal clear clarifications from Ken...        You've really lost me this time.

Quoting skipnet50:

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OK Tim, let me make this very obvious for even YOU.

Ida is a ROLE assumed by an actress who chose to bill Herself, that is the way it is displayed. Here is your ANSWER and it also solves your ALIAS problem. This was discovered by another user and gives us a cross reference to the data. You simply list Sandra AS Ida(uncredited) that is what the correct listing shoulkd be by DEFINITION. We cross refernce back Ida who is credited as herself and you also have your alias data. Simple, elegant, robust and it WORKS and you are not trying to twist data to be interpreted as YOU want it to be.

Skip

Ken Cole's statement on this is quite clear.  And, as you have often pointed out to us, it is HIS program and HIS data.  It seems to me that you do not care WHO says something -- that only YOUR interpretation matters.  If you vote NO to a contribution that clearly matches Ken's interpretation -- not Skip's interpretation -- I believe that you are voting in violation of the rules.  I'm starting to agree with your critics because it's starting to look like your true colors are coming to the front.  The attitude you have expressed on this issue is "It's Skips way or the Highway."

I realize you don't care if people support you or not, but when you blatantly refuse to abide by Ken's decision on this you may lose what little support you have and become totally irrelevant.

Quoting Daddy DVD:

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You think so? If you double click on Sandra Bullock's name, outside of edit mode, you don't see 'Ida Flammenbaum as Herself' and what if she just did the voice of Ida Flammenbaum, do you think it makes sense that the role reads Herself (voice)?

If I double click on Sandra Bullock's name, outside of edit mode, I get "Herself, as Ida Flammenbaum".

That tells me that she was credited as Ida Flammenbaum playing herself.  I still don't see the problem. 

Quoting Unicus69:

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If I double click on Sandra Bullock's name, outside of edit mode, I get "Herself, as Ida Flammenbaum".

Indeed. Don't you see this is exactly the opposite of Ida Flammenbaum as Herself? The cast information window tells us that Sandra Bullock plays herself with a nick name. This simply isn't true.

Quoting m.cellophane:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Its not as I please, Martin, it very SIMPLE. I understand the design of the Rules as NO ONE else does outside of DanW. This issue was carefully considered at the time, Tim has his opinion but he neither understands nor does he care to even try to. And as for the Sandra (Ida) issue, as I said there was a very elegant solution uncovered by a user that is already in use. So this whole issue is so wrong on so many different levels, many of which i will not even begin to address.


Skip

The rules in which you had a part were the 2005 version at Intervocative. The Credited As feature debuted in the Invelos version of the program in 2007 in spite of your protests. The rules for Credited As were written by Invelos. Ken Cole has clarified his intent several times in this thread. He's the absolute authority on the subject as far as I'm concerned. He designed the feature. He wrote the rules for it. He's clarified the rules. It's over.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Kudos to you James.

Quoting Daddy DVD:

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Quoting Unicus69:

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If I double click on Sandra Bullock's name, outside of edit mode, I get "Herself, as Ida Flammenbaum".

Indeed. Don't you see this is exactly the opposite of Ida Flammenbaum as Herself? The cast information window tells us that Sandra Bullock plays herself with a nick name. This simply isn't true.

I don't see that as an opposite at all. That comma after "herself" is very important. It tells us that Sandra Bullock is credited as Ida Flammenbaum, who is playing herself. If that comma was not there, then your reading of it would be right. But as it is, Ken's way of entering the credit seems the best way.

PS. I can't believe Skip is voting against Ken!! 

Quoting Daddy DVD:

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I do think that names of fictional characters should always be placed in the role field where they belong.

I don't see that as being necessary at all. Just because the actor is as fictional as the person they're "playing" doesn't mean we can't credit them just like any other cast member.