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HD DVD and Blu-ray
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

So it didn't raise ANY flags to you that in a conversion about PQ and SQ, he goes into depth about the PQ difference and not a thing about the SQ difference?  No flag at all raised when you saw that?


Not at all.  Why?  Because they are all subjective numbers.  They are not based on any measurable scientific standard.  In other words, they are opinions and have very little meaning.

Everybody has different tastes, equipment, eye sight and hearing ability.  Just because a group of reviewers think something is good doesn't make it so.  On the whole, it is meaningless data so I give it very little, if any, consideration.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
I like IMDB
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
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Quoting twojayz:
Quote:
This means that with 20 additional titles reviewed BD has a .07% (negligible) average lead in audio and a .2% (barely noticeable to the average eye) average lead with video quality...


Not nearly enough difference for me to notice the difference.  Unlike a reviewer, I'm watching a movie to enjoy it, not to nitpick to the extreme so my readers know what they're getting.  Heck, I don't even mind watching SD as long as the movie is good.  So why would I care about those differences?

Not to mention that doesn't mean that Blu-ray movies look .2% better or sound .07% better.  That just means that Blu-ray has had more higher rated movies or HD DVD has had some real stinkers.  But with those percentages, that could flip at any time.  The important question should be "Do the movies you're interested in look and sound good?"  I don't care if some crap movie gets perfect scores across the board or not.  These numbers are meaningless in real life.

Finally, those numbers alone don't tell the whole story.  For each site, is it the same reviewer doing the reviews for each format or different people for each format?  What equipment are they using?  How educated are the reviewers?  Do they truly understand what they are seeing and hearing or are they allowing specs to influence their opinions?  I've seen many people assume something is "better" because it's lossless or sampled at a higher bitrate or has more bits on the disc, but that may or may not be true.  One thing I've discovered from visiting various sites is that far too many people allow specs to influence them.

Those numbers are interesting and I'll agree that there seems to be a trend across a fairly reasonable sample size.  But the numbers are just too close and there's not enough supporting information to draw any general conclusions.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgardibolt
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Besides the fact of utter subjectivity in these scores, the sample sizes are too small and thus subject to skewing far too easily to draw any conclusions.  If just one reviewer on one of the sites is a zealot for a format, the numbers can be arbitrarily thrown out of whack.  That's especially true if not every reviewer in your sample is reviewing *both* Blu-ray and HD DVD discs for comparative scores.  For instance, I only review HD DVDs.

Furthermore, scores from the early days of the format, as I well know from reviewing myself, are not readily comparable to scores I give today. We were at the beginning still learning what the possibilities were, and to some extent we still are.  These are not apples and apples.
"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting VibroCount:
Quote:
Mine was from early August. But I find little at your link beyond Amazon sales figures.

And all formats are sold many places, including Amazon, whose figures would be typical of on-line buyers, but not necessarily reflective of buyers at WalMart, Target, and various other retailers' stores. Let us not forget sales at drug stores, supermarkets, etc., where hidef discs are still generally unavailable.

And 2.5% is not 3%, yet. The pie chart reflected 1.8% of the market, earlier in 2007. I'm not obsessive enough to rebuild the chart every few weeks.

Even 5% of the market, shared by two essentially incompatible formats, is not much impact on the entire market, especially when the overall market is growing, including the actual nubers of the 95% (which, by your figures is still at 97.5%).

Disc Sales: Hard Numbers in for First Half in 2007

2.5% is not 3%, but it's "AROUND 3%"...like I said.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting stefc:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
STEFC has a PS3 as a BD player only (according to him).

WRONG - My PS3 is a games console - I have bought 1 BD disc, still can't find another worth buying. Show me where I state i have a PS3 player as a BD player only...

Let's put it this way...

August 17, 2007, in the game console thread, the following was part of your post:

Quote:
Question for you AS, I bought a PS3, it came with 2 BDs, since then I've bought 1 more (can't find any other exclusives I want to buy).


Now, as we can see, your two statements match up.  They both point to you having BD titles and NO GAMES for the PS3.  You supposedly don't have any games, but you bought a BD title.  Does that make it a gaming machine only or a movie player only?

Here is the 2nd half of that post.

Quote:
If the PS3 is set to upscale DVDs (and does so pretty well), why can't it upscale the MPEG2 SD extras on a BD? My PS3 always outputs them at 480p?


I rest my case.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting stefc:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
The difference is that a top video game reviewer could be ANYONE that played games for a while.  A top movie reviewer generally needs to do a lot more than watch movies.  That is why top movie reviewers go into edge enhancements, black levels, bit rates, color accurancy, and reference calibrated equipment, etc.  Then, they actually talk about the movie itself (which is usually completely based on that individual's taste).

How many video game reviewers talk about the polygon counts, how many vertex shaders were active during certain levels, etc?  There's the difference.

WRONG. "Top video game reviewers" are not ANYONE. They are journalists who work for publishing companies and take their work seriously. If they focused on polygon counts, they would bore their readers to death, they discuss the merits of a game, or lack thereof, and discuss graphics and sound in relation to the gameplay experience and art style. A game is not rated on how many vertex shaders are active per level.

WRONG."Top movie reviewers" do not go into the technology of home movie formats, they review movies. Script, Plot, Direction, Performances, Themes, Cinematography, Art Direction, Sound etc etc. Movie reviews have absolutely nothing to do with DVD/HD DVD/BLU RAY edge enhancement and bitrates.


Show me examples of top video game reviewers backgrounds.  If you can show that top game reviewers have the qualifications you mentioned, I will accept that.  If you can't, will you accept my point?


As far as your top movie reviewer statement, I beg to differ.

Here's a title and a typical video review...
Quote:
Lionsgate presents 'Corpses' here in 1080p/VC-1 video. The most immediately striking aspect of the film is its colors. They are violently intense, yet I was incredibly impressed with how clean they are. Even the most shocking primaries are rock solid, with no bleeding and very, very little noise (if any at all) is present. Though the highly-stylized nature of the movie does obscure the finest detail somewhat (and don't expect "natural" fleshtones), the presentation still has tremendous pop. Blacks are excellent and contrast bright, but not overdone. Shadow delineation also holds up nicely, and I was expecting much more of a black crush, but that's not the case. There is also no apparent edge enhancement or other compression artifacts. 'Corpses' looks far better in high-def than you'd expect.

(Note that there are some sections of 'Corpses' that are intentionally degraded and/or shot on low-quality video, but as clear directorial decisions, they don't detract from this first-rate transfer.)


Here is the audio portion...
Quote:
I've got to hand it to Lionsgate -- more than any other studio of late, they've really been pushing the limits of high-resolution audio on Blu-ray. As they've done with other recent titles like 'Delta Farce,' once again here we get a nice DTS-HD High-Resolution 7.1 surround track (1.5mbps). I don't think a film like 'House of 1000 Corpses' really needs it, but far be it from me to complain about a studio pulling out all the stops.

Despite a fairly low budget, 'Corpses' actually does have a few nifty and inventive audio tricks up its sleeve. Right from the first scene, when a couple of misguided hoods attempt to rob Captain Spaulding, there's plenty of action to light up the entire 360-degree soundfield. Surrounds are most impressive, with the expanded channels in the rear boasting excellent imaging of discrete effects, and superior localization. When the horror finally kicks in, atmosphere is noticeably improved (the first attack on the kids is a highlight), and the sense of depth and realism to sounds is excellent.


Other reviews to look at...

The Lives of Others

The Lookout

Wild Hogs

Even going pretty far back in HD market terms...

The Pursuit of Happyness

Crank

Going back to the beginning...

Underworld: Evolution

Basically, just click on just about any BD title.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting stefc:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
The Blu-ray player side of the PS3 has ONLY had updates for INCREASING FUNCTIONALITY...NOT for fixing PROBLEMS.

WRONG -
Quote:
1.82: Downscaled output of Blu-ray Discs is now supported. When 720p is selected as the video output setting of the PS3™ system, Blu-ray Discs that were recorded in 1080p or 1080i resolution can be played in 720p resolution.


Thats not a feature, thats a fix. No 720p playback was a PS3 PROBLEM as it was a FUNCTION on stand alone BD players.

You ARE right about this one.  A GRAND TOTAL of 1 fix for BD playing functions on the PS3.  Does that make you feel better?  Can any HD standalone player say the same?

You are reinforcing my point.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

So it didn't raise ANY flags to you that in a conversion about PQ and SQ, he goes into depth about the PQ difference and not a thing about the SQ difference?  No flag at all raised when you saw that?


Not at all.  Why?  Because they are all subjective numbers.  They are not based on any measurable scientific standard.  In other words, they are opinions and have very little meaning.

Everybody has different tastes, equipment, eye sight and hearing ability.  Just because a group of reviewers think something is good doesn't make it so.  On the whole, it is meaningless data so I give it very little, if any, consideration.

Covered that recently...Page 116  Posted: September 20, 2007 2:00 AM

Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well.  Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge?  That would make this a lot simpler.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
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Quoting gardibolt:
Quote:
Besides the fact of utter subjectivity in these scores, the sample sizes are too small and thus subject to skewing far too easily to draw any conclusions.  If just one reviewer on one of the sites is a zealot for a format, the numbers can be arbitrarily thrown out of whack.  That's especially true if not every reviewer in your sample is reviewing *both* Blu-ray and HD DVD discs for comparative scores.  For instance, I only review HD DVDs.

Furthermore, scores from the early days of the format, as I well know from reviewing myself, are not readily comparable to scores I give today. We were at the beginning still learning what the possibilities were, and to some extent we still are.  These are not apples and apples.

The funny thing is HighDefDigest and DVDTalk are talked about for being HD DVD biased in a lot of cases.  That makes an even great testimony of what Blu-ray titles had to go through to best HD DVD's PQ.

Do you remember the PQ scores a few months into the format war?  HD DVD had around a .20 advantage in PQ.  That's a HELL of a swing in ratings.  Blu-ray titles were behind in number of titles and PQ.  That means not only did Blu-ray studios have to push more titles out to catch up with HD DVD, they had to increase the PQ in the titles they released.

Truly amazing.
To err is human...
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473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
Registered: March 14, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 254
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Quoting stefc:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
STEFC has a PS3 as a BD player only (according to him).

WRONG - My PS3 is a games console - I have bought 1 BD disc, still can't find another worth buying. Show me where I state i have a PS3 player as a BD player only...

Let's put it this way...

August 17, 2007, in the game console thread, the following was part of your post:

Quote:
Question for you AS, I bought a PS3, it came with 2 BDs, since then I've bought 1 more (can't find any other exclusives I want to buy).


Now, as we can see, your two statements match up.  They both point to you having BD titles and NO GAMES for the PS3.  You supposedly don't have any games, but you bought a BD title.  Does that make it a gaming machine only or a movie player only?

Here is the 2nd half of that post.

Quote:
If the PS3 is set to upscale DVDs (and does so pretty well), why can't it upscale the MPEG2 SD extras on a BD? My PS3 always outputs them at 480p?


I rest my case.

Ah so me not mentioning how many PS3 games I have bought is IRREFUTABLE PROOF that I bought my PS3 solely to play Blu Ray is it? Or is the fact that I asked a question about why the PS3 cant upscale 480i MPEG2 on BD? (which it still can't do by the way). You are breathtakingly stupid. My PS3 came with two games - Resistance and Motorstorm, I have since bought Heavenly Sword on BD, 2 games over PSN, and 5 PS2 games, and even re-bought some PS1 games that I had lost. And in this case numbers have nothing to do with what my personal intention behind my purchase was. You have no idea why I own a PS3, and its laughable to hear you spew forth your ASSumed deductions.

So yet again you are WRONG.
 Last edited: by stefc
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttwojayz
Registered: September 7, 2007
United States Posts: 265
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First things first, last time I checked most people would agree that AUDIO QUALITY and SOUND QUALITY are the same. Do I need to edit the post so that it reads SOUND QUALITY, or SQ? Less than one tenth of a percent in average sound quality scores is negligible. I'm not sure why my calibration came into this discussion as it has nothing to do with anything here. Yes, I expect all of my equipment to perform to the highest potential it is capable of. Anyway, I did point out the "GAP" in the audio reviews of both formats, I mentioned it more than once. It's less than a tenth of a percent. However, as I have pointed out in other posts, when a head-to-head comparison is made on one title in both formats the HD version either matched or beat th BD version if every single case.

I agree that the reference pool is still lean but I can only work with the numbers that are there. The only way around that is to mathematically forecast future reviews based on the information available. I did the leg work, someone else can tackle that one!

I have no interest in wasting the next week of my life visiting four more sites only to come to the same conclusion. I can't believe I did it last night to be honest.

In the information I provided, it is broken down as to how many titles on each format got which score in both audio (sound) quality and picture quality. If the average is wrong, which someone claims it is with the audio quality, then prove it. Where did my numbers go askew? I have everything laid out there and have challenged everyone to check my math. The difference turned out to be less than one tenth of a percent difference, with BD having more titles and theoretically better transfers to begin with since they have more exclusives. If anyone can provide information to disprove my math then by all means go for it. You can't simply say I'm wrong. The numbers are there for you to double check. Obvioulsly I missed a title or two as you can see from the post, I looked at over 1000 numbers and missed 5 along the way. Big deal.

As for challenging the post as to how many were from neutral studios, I have no desire to now go back and gather that information because it is virtually irelevant. If a studio decides to "handicap" one format or the other that's not my problem. I'm simply going by the product that is put out there. If HD gets a DD+ track and BD gets DD then I can't do anything about that. It's interesting that they would choose to put a lesser soundtrack on the "greater" of the formats.

From what I could tell on HighDef Digest, the same reviewer would take the lead on a particular title and compare the different formats to each other. From that standpoint the subjectivity is limited as in both formats got relatively equal reviews. In only a few cases did the reviewer give a slight edge to the HD transfer, while still giving BD the praise (or lack thereof) that it deserved. That shows to me that there isn't any preference and a true comparison and review has been done.

For the record, the Corpses review doesn't matter. It is only available on BD so it can't be reasonably compared to itself on a format that it isn't available on. Look at the review of 300 though, that makes sense. One reviewer takes the HD and BD version and reviews the film and compares the two formats against each other. That means more than a single exclusive title review. I could find a HD exclusive that would have a review just as good but it doesn't matter because there is simply no comparison to be made, to anything. 

As you could all tell from the post last night, I'm not hiding any information. I flat out said that BD has a NEGLIGBLE lead based on the reviews. How am I trying to spin that? Go figure...
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
Registered: March 14, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 254
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Show me examples of top video game reviewers backgrounds.  If you can show that top game reviewers have the qualifications you mentioned, I will accept that.  If you can't, will you accept my point?


Read any of the 1UP network, EGM, GFW, 1up.com (Ziff Davis Publishing), read EDGE magazine (Future publishing), read Eurogamer. IGN and Gamespot arent at the level they once were, but some of their critics are still good to read. Overall intelligent game critics, hardly a mention of polygons or shaders.

Quote:
As far as your top movie reviewer statement, I beg to differ.

If you think highdefdigest is a source of top movie critics, you are even more tragic then I previously thought. Respected movie critics/publications: Ebert@Chicago Sun-Times, Village Voice, New York Times, Time magazine, Variety, LA times, Sight and Sound, Guardian...

Do you honestly think that when AFI and the BFI make their top movies of all time polls according to the top critics they ask writers from highdefdigest to contribute? Man you are so sad I fell bad for laughing at you.

Again, - WRONG.
 Last edited: by stefc
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
You ARE right about this one.

And you are yet again WRONG.
 Last edited: by stefc
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttwojayz
Registered: September 7, 2007
United States Posts: 265
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Umm...I used HighDef Digest bacause you pointed it out as a reference...Holy crap...That was priceless.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well.  Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge?  That would make this a lot simpler.


Show me one post where I shrugged off numbers based on scientific processes.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttwojayz
Registered: September 7, 2007
United States Posts: 265
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Personally, I don't feel bad for laughing...
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