Quoting twojayz:

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Ascended...Well, I don't even know ehre to start with your response. The reasoning behind your argument is absolutely ludicrous. By your standrads this is what I have in my home:
5 HDTVS
11 DVD players
3 popcorn machines
1 7.1 channel hom theater system
2 5.1 home theater systems
12 CD players...

The list goes on and on. The reason to distinguish between products is because there IS a difference between products. Why have a product CATEGORY if it doesn't make any difference as to which a specific item belongs to? I didn't come up with the concept of product categorization.I have never discounted any of the capabilities of the PS3, you seem to suggest that I have.

What is the purpose of you wanting to label the PS3 as a primary gaming device when you have basically admitted that it's other abilities are EQUALLY impressive?  The words "primary function" is usually to suggests that a item does something better than the other functions.  Most people label things to put a handle on something.  It makes it easier to deal with how you prioritize the items you use and deal with in your life.  Have you not noticed that products have become VERY different than 10 years ago?  Products are integrating more and more functionality (for space saving reasons).  Now, you are starting to see products that perform all functions on an equal level, but we are STILL using the same labelling system in our heads.  Things are changing.  We need to be able to recognize that change and accept it.  Some people can't let go of that convenience.  It can be hard.  The easiest example I can give is with nationalities.  If a child was born in India, to an Indian woman and an American man, Would you label the child as an Indian, an American, or would it be more appropiate to come up with another label or remain label-less?  The PS3 is born from the beginnings of a gaming console (let's say the PS2 was the mother) and a PC.  So why still label it as if the other half doesn't exist?  This is best way I can explain this (it fits quite well). 

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As for your software sales, when have PS3 titles been included as BD sales? I love the logic behind this. You cannot argue the merits of software sales with the same standards. Blu-Ray titles are for one purpose only. There is no quesiont about that and you've completely missed the point.

No.  It just seems you did not understand what I said.  I NEVER said PS3 titles are included in BD software title sales.  I don't know know where you got that from, but it certainly wasn't from me.  Even though PS3 gaming titles ARE on 25GB Blu-ray discs, then are NOT counted in the Nielsen Videoscan HD format numbers.

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The intended purpose for the X360 add-on is to PLAY MOVIES. That is the only reason people buy that piece of equipment.

True.  The X360 add-on IS one-dimensional.

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Name one BD player that allows you to play a full assortment of PS3 games...There is a huge difference between the PS3 and a BD player. Do I actually need to point that out? If you don't elaborate then you are hiding the truth about what product you actually own. Why would you do that? Chances are that if you simply said you own a BD player and someone wanted to see and you showed them, they would say something like "Oh, it's a PlayStation".

It seems you are having a very difficult time with this.  Standalone players...let's look at the word "standalone".  Why would smeone come up with the label "standalone"?  What does it mean to Stand Alone?  Could it be that the label was created when PLAYERS started to have more functionality than just playing movies?  Could ALL other devices that can play movies STILL fit under the "labelled" of a PLAYER without it being it's only function?  This is what I'm trying to show you, IF you will allow me.  The point is...the PS3 fits under many LABELS, but ONLY the individual can determine what the PRIMARY use of it will be (because of it's diversity).

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Now as for where I see reviews, ones that are done in a proffesional manner, in a controlled environment. Home theater magazines such as Sound and Vision, Home Theater, etc...Also, CEPro, which doesn't necessarily review titles but has chimed in one the topic in the past. Why would I not trust reviewers that view the movies in a controlled environment. That is the ONLY way that a comparison can be made. Everything is equal so the good and the bad of any particular disc can be evaluated properly.

Chiming in on the subject IN THE PAST is a problem, because things have changed over the past 10 months.  Things WILL continue to change in the upcoming months.  This format war has changed dramatically since inception.  If you don't stay on top of the latest information, you will end up living and spouting out-of-date information.  I would suggest you pick up a copy of Nature's Journey on HD DVD and Blu-ray.  That is the FIRST direct comparison of Blu-ray and HD DVD's limits and the benefits of higher bandwidth using VC-1.

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If you're comparing a lossless soundtrack to one that isn't, well, um...Wow, again the logic behind that amazes me. Plenty of discs in both formates don't have a lossless audio track. Please supply 5 titles that are available on BOTH formats that use a different soundtrack.

Lossless codecs are ALWAYS better than lossy codecs unless the source material can be covered without loss within the bandwidth of the lossy codec used.  Example: If the source audio material was done at 1Mbps (it would have to be an old film in this case), it would lossless under the 1.5Mbps DTS lossy codec.  That's one of the points I've been trying to explain as simply as I could.

Please explain to me how it makes ANY sense to compare the same title on both formats when it is encoded for the LCD (lowest common denominator)...HD DVD?  I've explained this already.  Titles encoded for Blu-ray only WON'T fit on HD DVD discs.  Titles encoded for HD DVD WILL fit on Blu-ray discs.  It's that simple.  There is no way around it.

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I've seen plenty of reviews from both camps that include lossless Dolby or DTS soundtracks. If one title uses the same soundtrack for both formats then the end result will be identical. The lossless track is identical to the studio MASTER. That means there is no difference. None.

Could you give me a number of how many HD DVD titles have lossless tracks compared to Blu-ray?  Your definition of "plenty" may not be mine, so could you please be specific...use numbers?  If you won't use direct numbers, what are you trying to hide?  Let's not try to cover up the facts.  This is not politics.

I would have to go into a deep explanation of what was found out in the process of Dolby TrueHD encodes.  That would take a long time.  Basically, a lot of the soundtracks have been dialogue normalized (-4dB from the original source audio or the center channel).  That means it's been changed from the original MASTER.  You can get that back.  ANY changes from the original master means something is loss.  If something is loss, then i's not lossless.  The machine from Dolby supposedly does this BEFORE the compression process.

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By the way, I love the way you said that "About a year ago, the PQ would have been near even or a slight advantage to HD DVD.  HD DVD NEVER really came close to Blu-ray." Which way is it?

HD DVD "SQ" NEVER really came close to Blu-ray.  That's how it was suppose to read.  Sorry, those two letters were left off.  I hope that clears things up for you.

You said that you have 186 movies and 18 BD games, or something similar to it. By the way you worded your statement you included PS3 games as BD software titles. I did get it from you because you said it. Sony labeled the machine as a gaming device, as does everyone else on the planet.

Primary function defines what the product was designed to do. In the case of a gaming console, well, I shouldn't have to explain it any further than I already have. If you want to argue whether or not a PlayStation is designed to play video games then take it up with Sony. If I ask 100 people what a PlayStation is the vast majority will say it's for games before anything else.

The reason to compare the same title on both formats is to find out if one or the other actually has a PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE...If one does, it will show. You can you do a comparison of let's say Finding Nemo to King Kong but the results are worthless because there are no similarities between the two. Are you honestly saying that you can compare two entirely different things and try to judge which one is better when there is no benchmark for either? Regardless of whether or not it is encoded for a lowest common denominator, if one format is better it will be noticeable.

I'm not even about to begin arguing the validity of industry publications with you. If you prefer to believe someone with a website instead of the people who are actually creating and developing the technologies then that's up to you. I'll stick with the latter.

Dolby® TrueHD is Dolby’s next-generation lossless technology developed for high-definition disc-based media. Dolby TrueHD delivers tantalizing sound that is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master, unlocking the true high-definition entertainment experience on next-generation discs. When coupled with high-definition video, Dolby TrueHD offers an unprecedented home theater experience that lets you enjoy sound as stunning as the high-definition picture.

Features
100 percent lossless coding technology.
Up to 18 Mbps bit rate.

Supports up to eight full-range channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio.*

Supported by High-Definition Media Interface (HDMI™), the new single-cable digital connection for audio and video.

Supports extensive metadata including dialogue normalization and dynamic range control.

*Dolby TrueHD can support more than eight audio channels. HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc standards currently limit their maximum number of audio channels to eight.

Benefits
Delivers enthralling studio-master-quality sound that unlocks the true high-definition entertainment experience on next-generation discs.

Offers more discrete channels than ever before for impeccable surround sound.

Compatible with the A/V receivers and home-theaters-in-a-box (HTIBs) of today and tomorrow.

Dialogue normalization maintains the same volume level when you change to other Dolby Digital and
Dolby TrueHD programming.

Dynamic range control (Night mode) enables you to customize audio playback to reduce peak volume levels (no loud surprises) while experiencing all the details in the soundtrack, enabling late-night viewing of high-energy surround sound without disturbing others.

Selected as the mandatory format for HD DVD and as an optional format for Blu-ray Disc.

EDIT: This was taken directly from the Dolby website.

Taken from a Dolby whitepaper in regards to Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD:
http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf

Depending on the complexity of the original soundtrack and the sample rate and word lengths
of the digital master, Dolby TrueHD achieves compression ratios in the range of 2:1 to almost
4:1, putting it on par with some lossy compression technologies in terms of disc space, but
with perfect audio quality. This level of performance will enable content providers to include
Dolby TrueHD soundtracks as demanded by enthusiasts, while still leaving ample capacity for
additional high-quality alternative-language tracks or bonus features encoded with Dolby Digital
Plus without impacting picture quality or limiting the ability to include a variety of value-added
features on the disc.

Quoting twojayz:

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You said that you have 186 movies and 18 BD games, or something similar to it. By the way you worded your statement you included PS3 games as BD software titles. I did get it from you because you said it. Sony labeled the machine as a gaming device, as does everyone else on the planet.

I don't know where you are getting these statements and some of your numbers from.  They are not from me or maybe you are just pulling completely different meanings from them.  I said I had 233 BD movies.

Actually, Sony labelled it a media center, BD player, and a gaming console.  The PS3 fits ALL of those labels equally.  But, if saying the PS3 is a just a gaming console is the only way you can wrap your mind around it, so be it.

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Primary function defines what the product was designed to do.

Let's see what the PS3 was DESIGNED to do.  It was designed to play BDs, DVDs, CDs, games, store and playback music, store and playback videos, connect to the internet, read and write to media cards, etc.  So, how does this refute what I said in my previous post?

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In the case of a gaming console, well, I shouldn't have to explain it any further than I already have. If you want to argue whether or not a PlayStation is designed to play video games then take it up with Sony. If I ask 100 people what a PlayStation is the vast majority will say it's for games before anything else.

Now, you are thinking that I'm saying the PS3 isn't designed to play games?  That's strange, especially since I have 18 PS3 BD titles.  BTW, I say PS3 BD titles because you can also buy PS3 titles online.  Those would obviously NOT be on a Blu-ray disc like PS3 retail games.  In the name of clarity, I will try to say 18 PS3 retail games.  Hopefully that will help with some of the confusion.

Getting back to your scenario of questioning 100 people and what the vast majority will say...what does that have to do with what it does equally as well?  This seems to goes back to your need to put just one label on a device that fits MANY labels equally as well.

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The reason to compare the same title on both formats is to find out if one or the other actually has a PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE...If one does, it will show.

Do you mean a performance advantage like being the fastest loading and playing HD player on the market?  Or, do mean a performance advantage like being the only HD player on the market that can handle two 1080p video streams?  What about being the fastest chapter skipping HD player on the market?  Are those the types of "performance advantage(s)" you are talking about?

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You can you do a comparison of let's say Finding Nemo to King Kong but the results are worthless because there are no similarities between the two. Are you honestly saying that you can compare two entirely different things and try to judge which one is better when there is no benchmark for either? Regardless of whether or not it is encoded for a lowest common denominator, if one format is better it will be noticeable.

How in the world could you come to the conclusion you did in your last sentence?  That is so far from true it could only be measured in light years.  The only way that even be remotely close to true is if something is wrong with the components itself (i.e. loose or poorly constructed laser diode or laser diode too far away from disc surface)...not the technical performance specs.  That's like saying if a Toyota Camry and a Bentley Contential are both cruising down a straight highway at 80 MPH, you should be able to tell the Bentley has better engine performance by watching them drive by together.  Like I said, buy NATURE'S JOURNEY on HD DVD and Blu-ray.  That is the test that allows both formats to give their best and see where the chip fall.  BTW, that is a 25GB BD and a 30GB HD DVD disc that title is on.

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I'm not even about to begin arguing the validity of industry publications with you. If you prefer to believe someone with a website instead of the people who are actually creating and developing the technologies then that's up to you. I'll stick with the latter.

Actually, I like to see for myself.  Remember, if you're in a format war and you know your format is the weaker of the two, how do you push it?  Can you really push it to a crowd using honesty or must you use other tactics?
Think about it.

Quoting twojayz:

Quote:
Dolby® TrueHD is Dolby’s next-generation lossless technology developed for high-definition disc-based media. Dolby TrueHD delivers tantalizing sound that is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master, unlocking the true high-definition entertainment experience on next-generation discs. When coupled with high-definition video, Dolby TrueHD offers an unprecedented home theater experience that lets you enjoy sound as stunning as the high-definition picture.

Features
100 percent lossless coding technology.
Up to 18 Mbps bit rate.

Supports up to eight full-range channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio.*

Supported by High-Definition Media Interface (HDMI™), the new single-cable digital connection for audio and video.

Supports extensive metadata including dialogue normalization and dynamic range control.

*Dolby TrueHD can support more than eight audio channels. HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc standards currently limit their maximum number of audio channels to eight.

Benefits
Delivers enthralling studio-master-quality sound that unlocks the true high-definition entertainment experience on next-generation discs.

Offers more discrete channels than ever before for impeccable surround sound.

Compatible with the A/V receivers and home-theaters-in-a-box (HTIBs) of today and tomorrow.

Dialogue normalization maintains the same volume level when you change to other Dolby Digital and
Dolby TrueHD programming.

Dynamic range control (Night mode) enables you to customize audio playback to reduce peak volume levels (no loud surprises) while experiencing all the details in the soundtrack, enabling late-night viewing of high-energy surround sound without disturbing others.

Selected as the mandatory format for HD DVD and as an optional format for Blu-ray Disc.

EDIT: This was taken directly from the Dolby website.

All HD DVD players can decode TrueHD.  That has NOTHING to do with the titles.

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Well, according to you, if $70 is the affordable point for most...why are HD DVD people thinking $200 will change everything?  That's almost 3 times what you say is the affordable point.  They must also be out of touch with the consumers.

Please stop trying to twist my words.  I didn't say that was the affordable point for most.  To be precise, I threw out YOUR notion that the real question was "what can people afford?"  The real question is, what are people willing to spend?

In addition, I said you would be hard pressed to convince the average consumer that they need to spend $400...it would actually be more since they would have to buy new discs...for true HD when they can get near HD, from their existing collection, for only $70.  It's the percieved value and what someone is WILLING to spend, not what they can afford to spend.  I can afford a $1000 player but I am not willing to spend the money on it.

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Best Buy usually gives equal space to HD MOVIES (not counting the floater stands or end caps for Blu-ray).  If you are saying their are equal amounts of HD players from both sides in Best Buy, I would like some pictures if you would.  Thanks.

Again, please read what I wrote and remember what you wrote.  You said, "see what players are a lot easier to see and take notice of" and "Blu-ray would be the most visible of the HD formats."  Visibility has nothing to do with the number of units available, it has to do with placement in the store.  In my Best Buy, both formats have equal billing.  Both formats are easy to see and take notice of.  I can find an HD DVD player just as easily as I can a Blu-ray player.

I should probably add this disclaimer...This week Best Buy is giving top billing to upconvert DVD players, followed by a dual format player and an HD DVD player.  I did not see a single Blu-ray player in their ad.

Unicus, what consumers can afford or willing to pay...how does that change my point at all?  It doesn't.

Visibility has to do with product placement AND number of models available.  I would just like you to take a few nice pictures of your Best Buy HD player displays and locations in the store (including Magnolia which is owned by Best Buy...if you have one inside your Best Buy).  That's all.  A picture is worth a thousand words.  Several pictures should speak volumes.  I don't think you would do that though (for obvious reasons), but it was worth a try.

Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

Quote:

Unicus, what consumers can afford or willing to pay...how does that change my point at all?  It doesn't.

It changes your point quite a bit.  As I said, I can easily afford a $400 player.  I am not, however, willing to spend that much for a player.  The fact that you can't see the difference speaks volumes. 

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Visibility has to do with product placement AND number of models available.

No, visibility has to do with the ability to see something.  Number of models available has to do with, quite obviously, choice and availability.  One has nothing to do with the other.

To give you an example...actually two examples...when the PS3 and Wii were first launched, there were nice big displayes, prominently positioned in the stores. Both systems were highly visible in the stores.    Could I get either system?  No, but that didn't change the visibility.

I worked in retail, for quite some time, designing displays.  I can't tell you how many times I have made a product highly visible when there weren't any available.  Please stop talking about things you obviously know nothing about.