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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Contributing to Profiles of DVD's you Don't Own |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,029 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Quote:
I have generalised all along. This is bigger than individual users. Actually, I don't think it is. There are certainly only very few individuals who contribute and/or vote via artificial collections of that size. IF (big IF) necessary, Invelos can deal with them individually. There is no need to programatically restrict contributions and voting for normal users. | | | | Matthias |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Ken had decided to follow your compromise from page 7. Help out the smaller regions, where there aren't a lot of contributors, while leaving the larger regions alone. This is something I can certainly support and something everyone should be happy with. Well said. And if certain users would stop voting on profiles they don't own, and instead, per Ken's comment, would "allow the voters who actually own the submitted locality to make the call", then there really is no problem whatsoever, IMHO, and we can all benefit from improving CLT results (as what we're talking about here is mostly replacing IMDb-mined junk with actual "as credited" data). | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Posts: 281 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quote:
I just finished the credits for Dutch dvd profile #############, and I wanted to share this info with the other localities. Hope you appreciate it. This was someones contribution to a region 1 profile. This person was trying to contribute outside there region and this kinda thing should not be allow. It would have been OK if he copied from region 1 to the Dutch profile, then he can verify the data to be correct against the one in hand. You should only be allowed to contribute to a title if you own it or if it is a pre-release title. | | | | Last edited: by Dragon 6 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ken's statement should put an end to these kinds of contribution. R1 hardly qualifies as a region that needs help. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Posts: 281 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting whispering: Quote:
Quoting Dragon 6:
Quote:
Yes I agree that richierich example is very unrealistic and that user should not be allowed to vote or contribute. That user is likely to be cross region contributing and never intends to own any of these films.
 Ken just said you CAN contribute the cast/crew to other localities, or am i missing something here? Ken did not say you can contribute to other localities. He said you can copy from other localities. Quote:
Taking another case, if a particular locality has blank or limited cast info, and the submitter would like to fill it in with their verified cast from their own locality, I would tend to allow the voters who actually own the submitted locality to make the call. However, the submitted contribution notes should clearly indicate that the cast is from the other locality, so that the voters and contribution evaluators can make an informed choice. *Bold by me | | | | Last edited: by Dragon 6 |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dragon 6: Quote:
Ken did not say you can contribute to other localities. He said you can copy from other localities. Well, that made me laugh. The two are mutually exclusive, I gather?  | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dragon 6: Quote:
Quoting whispering:
Quote:
Quoting Dragon 6:
Quote:
Yes I agree that richierich example is very unrealistic and that user should not be allowed to vote or contribute. That user is likely to be cross region contributing and never intends to own any of these films.
Ken just said you CAN contribute the cast/crew to other localities, or am i missing something here?
Ken did not say you can contribute to other localities. He said you can copy from other localities. Actually, he did... Quoting Ken Cole: Quote:
In general, contributions should be made only for profiles which the contributor owns and can verify. Similarly, contribution votes should be made only for profiles which the voter owns and can verify.
However, there are exceptions. Obviously, prerelease contributions do not require ownership. They should be basic starter information (e.g. complete cast and crew is impossible to correctly contribute without having the disc).
Taking another case, if a particular locality has blank or limited cast info, and the submitter would like to fill it in with their verified cast from their own locality, I would tend to allow the voters who actually own the submitted locality to make the call. However, the submitted contribution notes should clearly indicate that the cast is from the other locality, so that the voters and contribution evaluators can make an informed choice.
One additional reminder to please keep the contribution vote notes completely civil at all times. As I said, with a few exceptions, R1 does not fall into that category so we should not see very many of these. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Posts: 281 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quote: Quote:
Taking another case, if a particular locality has blank or limited cast info, and the submitter would like to fill it in with their verified cast from their own locality, I would tend to allow the voters who actually own the submitted locality to make the call. However, the submitted contribution notes should clearly indicate that the cast is from the other locality, so that the voters and contribution evaluators can make an informed choice. other locality means they copied from another region to there own region. | | | | Last edited: by Dragon 6 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ken Cole: Quote:
Taking another case, if a particular locality has blank or limited cast info, and the submitter would like to fill it in with their verified cast from their own locality, I would tend to allow the voters who actually own the submitted locality to make the call. However, the submitted contribution notes should clearly indicate that the cast is from the other locality, so that the voters and contribution evaluators can make an informed choice. Question: You've said cast. How about crew (especially crew updates to 3.5 standards)? Question: You've said "blank or limited cast info". What about updating cast or crew to 'as-credited' data if that has not been previously documented in the notes (eg. it was probably IMDb-sourced or pre-dates the rules, etc). Question: Can you add common names based on CLT results to 'as-credited' profiles you don't own. In this case, one doesn't need the DVD to add the linking. Linking is based on the CLT and if the data is already 'as-credited', this should not be a problem? Comment: This should not be taken to mean that this cannot be done for R1-USA profiles. I've purchased a couple of R1-USA discs in the last year that were released up to 4 years ago where the only profile in the db is the Canadian version. So it's not always small localities that have limited data. It seems to me that the question should not be a strictly worded exception of "blank or limited cast" but rather a directive that if you submit an update for a profile you don't own, list the source UPC-locality that you used and then leave it up to the voters. Voters shouldn't be allowed to vote against it just because it's sourced to another UPC-locality but rather that they have identified an error. IMO. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Ken's statement should put an end to these kinds of contribution. R1 hardly qualifies as a region that needs help.  I have so many R1 profiles that need cast and crew, particularly TV series, that I can't keep up with them all. We must have vastly different collections. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | My biggest problem with allowing contributing to titles that you don't own is that voters should have to go through the contribution with a fine tooth comb to check for any variance between the regions. This might be easy enough for a lot of titles but there are titles that have cast credits of considerable length which will take a long time to check against the title & the contribution. In addition, we all know that there are quite a percentage of users who just vote yes to everything without even reading what is being contributed. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
if you submit an update for a profile you don't own, list the source UPC-locality that you used and then leave it up to the voters. Voters shouldn't be allowed to vote against it just because it's sourced to another UPC-locality but rather that they have identified an error. IMO. That's it - excellent!! As for the much-publicized fear of differences between various editions: it is important to realize that this is extremely, extremely rare - and I'll exclude obvious things like localized dubbing casts for animated movies, or "unrated editions" and the like: since it's clear that these may be problematic, nobody would try their hand at them anyway. Other than things like that, I don't believe we ever managed to come up with more than five occasions. And in those few examples that we have found, the difference would stick out like a sore thumb, and would certainly be picked up on by at least some of the voters. It's really nothing the voting process can't handle. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Posts: 281 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Forget_the_Rest: Quote:
My biggest problem with allowing contributing to titles that you don't own is that voters should have to go through the contribution with a fine tooth comb to check for any variance between the regions. This might be easy enough for a lot of titles but there are titles that have cast credits of considerable length which will take a long time to check against the title & the contribution. In addition, we all know that there are quite a percentage of users who just vote yes to everything without even reading what is being contributed. We also have profiles that don't get voted on at all. |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Posts: 281 |
| | Posted: | | | | If I take the cast and crew from the end credits of a film that I own (region 1) and contribute it to the same film in another region that I don't own in, even if I statedtThat I verified the cast and crew against my region copy the contribution could still be wrong for the other region and I would not know this. Now I just wasted the time of all the voters that verified the data to be wrong in there locality. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,029 |
| | Posted: | | | | On a side note: If you add large amounts of (possibly badly maintained) profiles from different localities to your database, you better know exactly what you are doing, because you may end up with changes to your already existing profiles. These side effects appear in at least two areas: Changed capitalization for studios.If you add a profile containing a studio name already present in your DB but with different capitalization, the studio name is changed. That changes all profiles referring that studio. For example, THINKFilm may become ThinkFilm or vice versa. This is different from the handling for cast & crew, where different captializations of a person's name are ignored. Unwanted BY for cast/crew.If you add a profile containing a cast/crew member with a BY, and a person with the same name but without a BY already exists in your DB, the BY is added to that person. That changes all profiles referring that person. Especially via early versions of the HeadShot database, a lot of wrong or superfluous BY have been introduced. In badly maintained profiles, these BY may still be present. When Dr Pavlov did contribute a lot of unowned profiles about a year ago, exactly that happened. Ironically, he started a thread to complain about a BY he himself had unknowingly propagated through the Online DB by adding a faulty profile to his own local DB. | | | | Matthias |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Another question: What about same-disc-ID but different UPC? I have a few double feature sets which are just the original discs from two movies packaged in one keep case. Quoting Forget_the_Rest: Quote:
My biggest problem with allowing contributing to titles that you don't own is that voters should have to go through the contribution with a fine tooth comb to check for any variance between the regions. This might be easy enough for a lot of titles but there are titles that have cast credits of considerable length which will take a long time to check against the title & the contribution. In addition, we all know that there are quite a percentage of users who just vote yes to everything without even reading what is being contributed. We're supposed to only vote on profiles we own so that we can verify the data, yet we're not to be expected to actually verify the data? That's just my understanding of what some people are saying. I personally do not verify most data for profiles I vote on. I verify things that look odd to me, but certainly not everything. Quoting T!M: Quote:
As for the much-publicized fear of differences between various editions: it is important to realize that this is extremely, extremely rare - and I'll exclude obvious things like localized dubbing casts for animated movies, or "unrated editions" and the like: since it's clear that these may be problematic, nobody would try their hand at them anyway. Other than things like that, I don't believe we ever managed to come up with more than five occasions. And in those few examples that we have found, the difference would stick out like a sore thumb, and would certainly be picked up on by at least some of the voters. It's really nothing the voting process can't handle. I agree. I don't think we've had an instance of a user trying to contribute data that was incorrect for the locality; have we? The most recent possible occurrence turned out to be a disagreement over the archive footage for Son House and wasn't a regional credit issue. I think this is much ado about nothing. I'd much rather get the vast majority of the data fixed than to worry that something might happen that hasn't happened yet (that I know of). Quoting Dragon 6: Quote:
We also have profiles that don't get voted on at all. If someone contributed cast and crew and sourced it to a different UPC-locality and no one voted on it and it gets accepted, if you later identify the error, you can contribute a correction sourced to your UPC-locality. That will certainly override the earlier alternate UPC-locality source. I would view alternate UPC-locality sourced contributions as an interim level of data. If someone later wants to contribute from the actual UPC-locality, great. If not, we'll be miles ahead in terms of accuracy if we allow alternate UPC-locality contributions. IMO. Quoting Dragon 6: Quote:
If I take the cast and crew from the end credits of a film that I own (region 1) and contribute it to the same film in another region that I don't own in, even if I statedtThat I verified the cast and crew against my region copy the contribution could still be wrong for the other region and I would not know this. Now I just wasted the time of all the voters that verified the data to be wrong in there locality. Such a thing could happen. More likely though would be that you would replace IMDb data with as-credited data from a copy of the film. Could there be regional differences? Yes, in a few circumstances. I'm sure we could start a sticky thread and it would be a lot shorter than the birth year thread. As T!M pointed out, if there's a dubbing cast situation, that's one thing. I think the consequence of limiting our contributions to profiles we own is that we preserve mass quantities of bad IMDb data out of fear that we might create a regional error, and to the extent that the existing bad data is not as-credited, our CLT data is flawed. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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