Quoting skipnet50:

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As for uour comments relative to being insulting, I give what I get, you insult me, then you can expect return fire.

That just lowers yourself to the level you perceive the other person is at and as we have seen many, many times over, it doesn't do anything to help and only prolongs the argument.

Just ignore it, it's not worth the frustration. This isn't directed just at Skip.

Quoting skipnet50:

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You are demonstrating quite nicely why your favored plan will not function. List the name AS YOU SEE IT, add no data and then use the Alias system to sooth the jangled cultural nerves. Nicely done, north

Skip

It's already been proven in this thread that the alias system won't work in this situation. I'm going to follow Dr. Killpatient's advice and ignore your abusive posts until you show at least a modicum of understanding as to what this discussion is actually about.

North:

You still aren't getting it. Let me try again.

EVERY user should be able to enter the data EVERY time without any specialized knowledge. The way to achieve that is by replicating as closely as we can the data appearance On Screen, that is no diacriticals O screen don't add them. Now I will grant you that some cultures have Rules for diacriticals relative to case, this can handled through the Alias system.  Your way winds up with say 50 entries for Francois and 48 for François for the SAME film in the CLT so we can get no accurate result. Just use the ALIAS system for the cultural issue, that solves it. And we have everybody entering data the same way and we are o the way to building a useful database, instead of a mess because everybody is entering data the way THEY want to do it.

Skip

Wrong. The CLT tracks the Credited As, so that data must be consistent. What will break it is some entering the data one way and some another. François Credited As Francois is what works. Now we MIGHT end up with TWO database entries because I presume that WILL be films that actually do reflect François ON SCREEN.

As for your comment relative to the French users and fairness, what I have described is the way the system was designed to work. I have said this numerous times over the past three years, I would not anticipate that they would have to change all of their data, many French films set up their data in a format that does display diacriticals, EVEN if they use all caps.  They are simply entering the data as they interprte the rule to read, and as I have said numerous times over the past three years i have explained how it was designed to function and even that the use aof standard caps was NOT a bow to any culture but merely done for Aesthetic reasons, so that the data all looked the same.

FRANCOIS
Francois
François

just didn't look good, plus then you get into the possibilities of color and font, etc. A REAL nightmare.

Not to mention the occassional film that mixes upper and lower case usage.<groan>

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

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François Credited As Francois is what works.

And this is exactly what I've been arguing for: using François for the common name. Why have you been arguing the opposite?

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As for your comment relative to the French users and fairness, what I have described is the way the system was designed to work. I have said this numerous times over the past three years, I would not anticipate that they would have to change all of their data, many French films set up their data in a format that does display diacriticals, EVEN if they use all caps.  They are simply entering the data as they interprte the rule to read, and as I have said numerous times over the past three years i have explained how it was designed to function and even that the use aof standard caps was NOT a bow to any culture but merely done for Aesthetic reasons, so that the data all looked the same.

That may be the way you envisioned the system working, but that's not what's in the rules. The rules tell the users to use "standard capitalization rules", and for the French that means FRANCOIS = François (usually).

Quoting northbloke:

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I have to say, I think this is a different issue in a way, it's more similar to people being known by more than one name. In my eyes Rade Šerbedžija and Rade Sherbedgia are two names for the same person, not the same name written differently. Does that make sense?

Yes, but it was only an example for what happens with names in credits: They loose their diacritics and changed to another name "by accident" and this "accident" will be our common name. And I'm sure these are "accidents". I checked credits with the same name in a lot of different languages from a lot of different countries, the use of diacritics is randomly.

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In the example of François Truffaut, the problem we have is that François is written as FRANCOIS, but so is Francois. So when we see FRANCOIS in the credits we have to rely on external knowledge to work out what the original was.
In your Croatian example, Rade Sherbedgia is not Rade Šerbedžija but just written differently, it's actually a different name that person is also known by. So in that case, I would follow common name rules - use his most common credited name as his common name, and use credited as when it's different.

For me these are also two different names. Correcting the CLT results the common name would be "Rade Sherbedgia" (the most credited name), credited as "Rade Serbedzija" (in most of his older movies). No problem. The real name will be ignored  . But the interesting fact is how this other name Rade Serbedzija was created, by ignoring the diacritics.

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I'm not sure about Álex de la Iglesia. Is Alex an anglicisation of Álex or, as with the French language, can Á also be written as A but mean the same thing?

As far as I know the latter. Even in spanish movies he is credited with and without the accent. And in Spanish they regularly use accents also with capitol letters. I would solve this issue as Skip suggested, using the name with diacritics as common name and without as "credit as..." name. But this solution is not covered by the rules. The common name should be the most credited name and what if the name with the diacritics is not the most credited name? And the CLT is for no use. I checked the last days almost 100 names with their variants, in 95% the CLT gives me the IMDb name as most credited name 

And to drive it a little bit further    : In German we have ü, ä, ö and ß as "unusual characters", we can also write them as ue, ae, oe and ss if the original characters are technically not supported. So what shall we do with a name like Küchner, sometimes written as Kuchner (lost his diacritics) and sometimes as Kuechner when we are looking for a common name? A German will choose Küchner and an American will treat them perhaps as three different names for three different people or choose Kuchner as most credited name.

It will start a lot of profile changes: Some uses as common name the CLT results (that's at the moment the IMDb name), some uses the corrected results of the CLT, some uses them with and some without the diacriticals. That's not consistent. But using only names without diacritics or only if they are used in the credits for the common name, perhaps we get a little more consistent database (I'm in doubt, a lot of users want a more correct name as common name and they will find a way to get them into the database) but far away from accuracy.

Thanks schizzzo, you're right - using the "credited as" system to show the diacritics would be against the rules. I was trying to think how to put it but you did it better.

I'm wondering, in the situations you mention, do you think the names have been added without the diacritics because that's how they're actually credited or because the people who did the profile missed them off?

In theory, the CLT would help in a lot of these situations, but the database is too corrupted with IMDB data for it to work properly.

Your posts have shown me that the French caps problem is just the tip of a nasty iceberg, it looks more and more like we need a bigger fix to the naming system than just a clarification of a rule.

I'm wondering - just off the top of my head - would it help or hinder if the program ignored diacritics? So, as an example, François Truffaut and Francois Truffaut were linked by the program (and the CLT) without any need for changing profiles? So, in your example, both Küchner and Kuchner connected (although it wouldn't help with Kuechner).

But we are told to use the most commonly credited name as the common name - we can't just decide to use the one with diacritics if that's not the most commonly credited name.
And that's the problem with the French names, non-French users are seeing FRANCOIS on screen and assuming that it says Francois, which is not necessarily true. Same with Küchner/Kuchner it seems too. And that's distorting the results of the CLT.