Quoting pdf256:

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Quoting W0m6at:

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I have avoided weighing in on this one until now.  As unlikely as it seems, perhaps a fresh voice will break through.

Quoting skipnet50:

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Let me make this very simple, Paul. That way it won't hurt your brain, I hope.

FRANCOIS===>Francois

I can document that the name is indeed François, not just assuming it to be true because after all it is entirely possible that the person decided for his own purposes to anglicize the name.

FRANCOIS===>Francois is a cultural interpretation.  FRANCOIS===>François is a phonetic interpretation.  The suggestion of anglacisation is pure speculation, and introduces culture into the data.

However, I can see your argument Skip.  I can even see the validity of your argument  It has merit.  Unfortunately, despite your numerous posts, you rarely make your point.  In the umpteem pages of posts in this and many other threads, you quickly communicate your point once, and then spend the remainder of your time attacking people.  Sometimes points need re-stating and clarifying, yet I rarely see anything beyond a statement that you've already made your point.  I consistently read posts from you telling people they are WRONG and you are RIGHT, that they have OPINIONS and you have FACTS.

I urge you to please take the time to objectively re-read this thread and calmly present (and restate) your thoughts on the issue.  Although you don't always present your arguments in the best way possible, you seem an intelligent person, and your input on a topic is just as welcome as anyone else's.  I'm sure that if you do so in a manner not intended to alienate anyone with an alternative viewpoint, you won't be attacked, and people will take note of what you have to say (although they may choose to disagree).

To everyone else, I urge the same.  Read the suggestions/arguments in the posts, not the bitterness, and consider all ideas, not just those which match your perception.  Changing your mind doesn't make you wrong, it makes you strong if you've chosen to change because you are wiser.

R
W0m

W0m,

Most, if not all of us, can see what Skip is saying. That said, it does not follow that we agree with him.

Skip posts over and over again that 'he knows what the rules mean' and that the rest of us must be fools to not see it his way. I would say that 'he knows what he wants the rules to mean', but they are not his rules, they are Invelos' rules. Only Ken and Gerri Cole have the final word as to what they mean.

pdf

Paul:

If you understand it, i haven't seem any indication since I provided the answer to the problem, whilst you appeared to ignore it.

Wom is the first user that has demonstrated any kind of understanding. If I must I will even attempt to explain the logic that led to this conclusion THREE years ago. But it had absolutely NOTHING to do with anyone's culture.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

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Stuart:

Skip doesn't believe, Skip KNOWS, and it is NOT based on culture. look at what you are said. You have agreed with much of what I said. That we should be all working on the same page, etc....as long as its the page you want to use which IS based on culture....rather blindly so at that.

Based on what I see you saying and others, I am puzzled why we need an alias system. I know of at least user that would support this interpretation, but it sounds to me like you basically want to be free enter whatever YOU believe is the correct answer with no basis in anything other than your culture. Why do we  need to turn Profiler into a clone IMDb, which is how they function, they already exist.

You are also ignoring that you achieve what YOU wish to achieve through the Alias system.

Skip

I conclude from this post that I actually DO know what you're saying and have done from the start. I can acknowledge that your viewpoint is based upon trying to simplify things for the majority benefit. I can acknowledge that it is a reasonable stance to take, and even that it MAY be the best stance to take. However, I do not recognize that this makes it the automatically the correct answer and all other stances should be ignored. Nor do I accept that the situation is automatically included in the rules based upon anything I've read.

And I strongly believe that you are wrong in saying that one-to-one transformations for letters are culturally independent. If you want to show us all wrong, the best way is to provide evidence. If you can't provide evidence that makes what many of us see as an assumption into fact, then you can't reasonably expect us to accept it as such. I know how much you like people to provide facts for their positions, so I don't think I'm being unreasonable in expecting the same from you.

I see the alias system is a functional tool, not an aesthetic one. It's required to solve a functional problem. As such, I find the aesthetics side of the feature totally irrelevant (although others may not).

Stuart

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Quoting EnryWiki:

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Mind you, I absolutely see your point that  using ONE convention (the American one) makes things simpler in many cases, and I could even agree with using American conventions for any name if and only if:
1. most users want that (which I doubt, especially in localities other than R1);
2. it is fully understood what we gain (simplicity) and what we lose (accuracy);
3. it is expressly written in the Rules.

My biggest worry about specifying the US convention in the rules would be that it would affect profiles worldwide. We would end up with French DVDs released only in France having to follow a US convention. That sounds like a lot of work for our French colleagues with no foreseeable benefit on their part.
It makes much more sense to adapt the very few credits affected to fit the native language of the person involved. We would gain accuracy (knowing the person has an accent in their name) and a link to all the films they made in their own country.
So again, I would suggest we follow the capitalisation rules according to the nationality of the person involved unless someone provides evidence that they have "anglicised" their name.
In reality it would only affect credits in all caps for French people working on non-French films, to be honest I can't see that being a great deal of people.

Yes, Ken please stop hidding behind that ! 

Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting northbloke:

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So again, I would suggest we follow the capitalisation rules according to the nationality of the person involved unless someone provides evidence that they have "anglicised" their name.

Totally agree with this approach.

Me too. But concerning diacritics it is a single solution for the french language (it is as far as I know the only language which left out diacritics in capitol letters). Some examples to make clear where the problem is at the moment:

Real name: Rade Šerbedžija
Americanized name: Rade Sherbedgia
IMDb name: Rade Serbedzija (his real name without diacritics)
Common name according to CLT: the IMDb name
Most credited name: the americanized version (as far as I can research it)

He is born in Croatia, in the Slavic languages the Š is a character of its own and it's not an S with something added. I guess he changed his name to the americanized version (this version sounds similiar to his real name) in his later movies because it was almost always written wrong. This example is not a problem for the database ("Rade Sherbedgia" credited as "...") but it is an example for the problems with the diacritics in general.

In credits (esp. in older movies, B-movies or when the credits are in a different language than the actor) very often diacritics left out or set more or less randomly. I guess mostly because of technical limitations (the characters couldn't be displayed) or ignorance/inexperience but definitely not because of a contract condition.

Another example:
Álex de la Iglesia (spanish director)

Sometimes he is credited with, sometimes without the diacritic. Even on his own homepage his name is written with (in the textual part) and without it (in the graphical part). The CLT result is almost 50/50. What to do?

And if the French can add their diacritics (because of the standard capitalization rules) why not the rest of the world (because of technical limitations and/or ignorance in the credits)?

A lot of users want to use the correct name with diacritics as the common name (not only the French ones) but the system doesn't allow it at the moment. The most credited name should be the common name and that's not the one with the diacritics. Most film credits are in english, very often the real name with diacritics is transformed into "something" without them (see Rade Šerbedžija). The english language is the only one I know in which diacritics are not used.

And now the problem starts (and I guess that's what Skip is worrying about): The names are in the database with and without diacritics, sometimes the common name will be the one with, sometimes the one without. The French one are allowed to add them, the rest of the world not?

We all want accuracy AND a consistent database that everyone can contribute to. And a lot of people want correct written names as common name (because of accuracy and perhaps respect to the person and the language). But then we can't use the most credited name for the common name and we must do a little bit of research to add the missing diacritics to the common name. And the Profiler must support Unicode or at least UTF-16.

As far as I can see there is no solution for this problem at the moment (only the French ones are the lucky ones  )

Even one day it will be possible contributing will be more difficult but at the moment I guess a lot of people stopped contributing cast&crew because the DVDP is english dominated.

The DVDP is an american program, a lot of credits are in english but a lot of names are not. We should find a way to deal with these diacritics in general (not only for the French ones) for accuracy in the online database.

Quoting skipnet50:

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Enry has it dead WROING. One page PERIOD not mu;ltiple pages. Like i said all you prove to me,is that you are NOT interested in a quality database. You want a MESS. And I repeat ONE MORE time north it is NOT the American WAY, it is the Crediits way. You only demonstrate utter.... But then hal will vote  Yes to almost anything including out and out bad data., so I expect no better of him, sadly. You are going to absolutely ruin this database, you are NOT working to make it better. I would call the way it is supposed to be more INTERNATIONAL than the cultural answer because absolutely NO specialized knowledge is required of ANY user to enter data correctly, but as we all have seen you are not interested in anyone but your little corner of the world.. Why do we even need an Alias system just enter the data the way the french experts think it should be.

The credits way is very often the american/english way. And if we want to do cast&crew based on non-english credits we have problems. The DVDP is, as you said, an american software and is designed for data in the english language. No problem if on screen are only english names (or english looking names) but if not...

And what is a correct database? A database with a working linking system and correct common names which also shows the name appearing on screen.

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For KEN if you do this please do all of us a favor and isolate the various Regions from each other, we will NEVER be able to apply any kind of rational usage out the Alias system if we have everybody dooing whatever they want to do. And the only possible answer to that is isolate them, it will make Profiler both weaker and stronger.

It sounds like "Do it my way or get outta here"?! That's not a solution.

Quoting schizzzo:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Enry has it dead WROING. One page PERIOD not mu;ltiple pages. Like i said all you prove to me,is that you are NOT interested in a quality database. You want a MESS. And I repeat ONE MORE time north it is NOT the American WAY, it is the Crediits way. You only demonstrate utter.... But then hal will vote  Yes to almost anything including out and out bad data., so I expect no better of him, sadly. You are going to absolutely ruin this database, you are NOT working to make it better. I would call the way it is supposed to be more INTERNATIONAL than the cultural answer because absolutely NO specialized knowledge is required of ANY user to enter data correctly, but as we all have seen you are not interested in anyone but your little corner of the world.. Why do we even need an Alias system just enter the data the way the french experts think it should be.

The credits way is very often the american/english way. And if we want to do cast&crew based on non-english credits we have problems. The DVDP is, as you said, an american software and is designed for data in the english language. No problem if on screen are only english names (or english looking names) but if not...

And what is a correct database? A database with a working linking system and correct common names which also shows the name appearing on screen.

Quote:
For KEN if you do this please do all of us a favor and isolate the various Regions from each other, we will NEVER be able to apply any kind of rational usage out the Alias system if we have everybody dooing whatever they want to do. And the only possible answer to that is isolate them, it will make Profiler both weaker and stronger.

It sounds like "Do it my way or get outta here"?! That's not a solution.

Schizzzo:

I haven't said it but that sounds exactly like what i hear from you and others on the side of the pond. You simply are willing to trash the database just so your cultural convention is acknowledged and I have spelled out precisely how that is achieved but it's not good enough is it.

Skip