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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,678 |
| | Posted: | | | | I just noticed something interesting when watching the BD release of Tora! Tora! Tora!
The direction credits for the theatrical version reads
Japanese sequences directed by Toshio Masuda & Kinji Fukasaku
Directed by Richard Fleisher
The extended version reads
American sequences directed by Richard Fleischer
Directed by Toshio Masuda & Kinji Fukasaku
As I understand it, we document the longest version, which in this case would be the extended one. And we don't credit sequence directors.
So wouldn't this mean that Richard Fleischer does not get any director credit for this BD release? | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | This movie is nothing without both sequences, so why wouldn't we credit all three?
Just to be clear, the rules prohibit 'Co-Directors' and 'Directors of Special Features'. They say nothing about 'Sequence Directors'. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
This movie is nothing without both sequences, so why wouldn't we credit all three?
Just to be clear, the rules prohibit 'Co-Directors' and 'Directors of Special Features'. They say nothing about 'Sequence Directors'. According to the credits given for the extended version there is not a listing of two sequences with their directors but there are two main directors listed and a sequence director. 'American sequences directed by' is neither listed in the chart nor is it a direct translation of 'directed by'. Strictly according to the rules Richard Fleischer can't be entered. Personally I would agree that he should be listed though. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,774 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
This movie is nothing without both sequences, so why wouldn't we credit all three?
Just to be clear, the rules prohibit 'Co-Directors' and 'Directors of Special Features'. They say nothing about 'Sequence Directors'. I agree, it makes more sense to credit all three, but one could argue that "sequence director" is basically very similar to a "unit crew", as he is only responsible for a separated part of the movie.  | | | | Last edited: by SpaceFreakMicha |
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| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Strictly according to the rules Richard Fleischer can't be entered. Personally I would agree that he should be listed though. Once again, we have an example where strict application of rules is a nonsense. Why is it impossible to agree here to add to the rules the right to be intelligent when necessary ? | | | | Images from movies |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 20,111 |
| | Posted: | | | | Richard Fleisher was most certainly a main Director of the film, just watch any of the bonus materials on the film itself. It's just common sense if you know anything about the backstory of Tora! Tora! Tora!. The film was shot as basically two seperate films, an American side of the story and the Japanese side of the story. | | | | Corey |
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| Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree Richard Fleisher is a main Director of the film. I would contribute him as such and post a link to this thread for the screeners to see.
This is another of those instances where Ken might need to weigh in so that this critical data is not lost due to an inadequacy in the way the guidelines are written. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,678 |
| | Posted: | | | | The question isn't who is the main director or who deserves the credit.
The question is - what does the rules tell us to do?
When the rules lead to consequences like this, it becomes clear - to me, at least - that we do need some leeway for common sense (and I don't care if some claim that common sense is neither common nor sensible). | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Since Richard Fleisher is listed as a Director, I believe he falls in the invelos guidelines.
One could also justify "American Sequences" as falling within the guidelines for Crew listed as"Other Units". Since they specifically mention "American Sequences" and not "Second unit", I believe this is yet another justification for his inclusion.
But, "American Sequences" is not specifically listed which might be a problem for some people. This is why I careful documentation should take care of this issue if Ken does not. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
This movie is nothing without both sequences, so why wouldn't we credit all three?
Just to be clear, the rules prohibit 'Co-Directors' and 'Directors of Special Features'. They say nothing about 'Sequence Directors'.
According to the credits given for the extended version there is not a listing of two sequences with their directors but there are two main directors listed and a sequence director. 'American sequences directed by' is neither listed in the chart nor is it a direct translation of 'directed by'. Strictly according to the rules Richard Fleischer can't be entered. Personally I would agree that he should be listed though. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly see 'Directed by' in both the chart and the credit given so, as far as I am concerned, it is a valid credit. The only difference is that the actual credit tells us which part of the film was directed by that person and I don't see that as a reason to invalidate the credit...especially when the theatrical version has the credits reversed and the only reason they are reversed, is because this is the 'Extended Japanese Cut'. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
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| Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't see a reason to not include all three. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | If it were me I'd be including all three regardless of the version I was documenting for this particular movie. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,678 |
| | Posted: | | | | For my local I would definitely include all three, but that's not the point of my question.
My impression was that if there were credits for director and sequence director, only the former would be credited in Profiler. But I guess it's a gray area.
I have seen several credits where a sequence director could just as well have been credited as second unit director. Things like "underwater sequences directed by". So should all sequence directors be credited in Profiler? | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
My impression was that if there were credits for director and sequence director, only the former would be credited in Profiler. I read rules as you do. But for once, it seems that everybody agree to violate them in this case, the first time I see some common sense here... | | | | Images from movies |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
I have seen several credits where a sequence director could just as well have been credited as second unit director. Things like "underwater sequences directed by". So should all sequence directors be credited in Profiler? I sure hope not! |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well, when those sequences comprise nearly 50% of the movie I'd be willing to discuss it. |
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