I have a question regarding the audio and subs of the Ultimate Matrix Collection Blu-ray set. I had submitted Japanese audio and subtitles but the contribution got declined (with 17 votes pro and 6 against no less).

The apparent reason is that these tracks are "hidden". I'd like to present my case why I disagree with this. I've done some more testing and here's what I could find:

The situation is as follows:

- When a player(any player: US, EU or JP player or a computer) is set to English or another Western European language as the main language, the Japanese tracks aren't available in the menus, but all the others are
- When a player is set to Japanese as main language, then only Japanese and English is available, while Portugese, Spanish, French and Italian are not.

Here's why I think the Japanese tracks should be included:

1) First of all, the rules don't state that a track needs to be available in the menus for any given main language settings. The rules state that when a track is encoded on a disc, it takes precedence over the cover and the tracks should be listed in the order as they are encoded on the disc:
"List audio tracks in the order in which they are encoded on the disc, determined via your DVD player or DVD-ROM drive. Use the Audio specified on the DVD Cover unless you can verify there is a discrepancy between that and the actual Audio included on the disc. When contributing accurate, DVD based Audio, include your verification method in your Contribution Notes."

2) If we take the assumption that a track which isn't available in all player main language settings shouldn't be contributed, then the audio tracks for French, Spanish, Italian and Portugese should also be erased from the profile. The only track that is available in all main language settings, is English

3) Finally, virtually every standalone player or computer can change the main language. This means that the above-mentioned doesn't only affect Japanese players, it affects every player worldwide: if you change the main language settings, then the available tracks will reflect that change. I have tested this on 2 different European models, one being a Sony BD standalone player, the other a computer.



Taken the above into account, I cannot understand why the Japanese tracks are refused yet the Italian, French, Portugese and Spanish are included.    Can someone please clarify this, preferably by quoting which part of the rules applies here. Thanks in advance.

Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
Hidden Audio tracks were unheard of when the Rules were developed and unanticipated, so of course they are not accounted for in the Rules, they are such a recent feature that they were not even anticipated as a Program feature for 3.5.

So when it suits your needs, you endlessly quote the rules to us to death.
When it doesn't suit your needs, you say the rules are in need of ammendment and vote against the rules.
That's convenient... 

Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
The ONLY way this can be accomodated at this time is through the Easter egg section with a detailed explanation that the track is hidden, how it is accessed and that is not available to ALL decks, nor is it part of the Menus. The Program, in the future, should modified in some form allowing us to capture all the above information, so that Joe Blow doesn't look at the menus and say there is no such track on this disc and remove it, but for now only Easter Egg.

So your suggestion is we put only this track in:
English

And the following as easter egg:
Japanese, Spanish, French, Italian, Portugese

Correct? If this is how the rules are meant to be understood, I'll adapt my profiles and resubmit as such.

You just made one mistake, though: all tracks are indeed available to ALL decks. Depending on your personal settings in your player, certain tracks aren't displayed. However, by changing the settings, you can have access to ALL tracks with ALL decks. It is not a hardware related issues, it is a settings related issue.

I thought I remembered this being asked before and it was back in March, by you.

Northbloke gave you a link to another thread from November.

I would disagree with it being an Easter egg. Although they may not be selectable on different system language settings, I wouldn't describe them as being hidden. Besides that, the rules don't say that audio tracks need to be selectable from the menu, all the time.

Edit: I would advise you follow the advice given in Lewpy's original thread -

Quote:
As long as you make good contribution notes, it gets easier for folks to vote no on future changes to remove it.  People actually will go through the notes to understand why something happened.

Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
No, you are not correct regarding the other languages, they are listed on the back cover are they not, Japanese is not listed. I presume they are also listed in the menus, while Japanese is not. So you would be wrong to handle the others as Easter Eggs as well. The topic is "hidden" audio, not Audio in general.

Skip

Granted, they are listed on the back cover. However the rules clearly state that the way tracks are encoded on a disc supercedes covers. I put the discs in my computer and all tracks showed up, including the Japanese ones, when using Blu-ray analysing software.

As much as I can understand that for some users it may be a bit disconcerting when they don't see those tracks in the menus (because their personal settings use a western language as main language), it doesn't take away the fact that those tracks are included on the disc. You don't need to download them seperately through BD-Live and you don't need to go to any kind of re-encoding process.

I have followed the rules to the letter, as far as I can tell. So I'll take Forget the Rest's advice and resubmit with a better, clearer explanation.

There have been a number of other titles like this (Batman Gotham Knights comes to mind) and the audio tracks have been accepted.  Where the Menu, Audio, and subtitle options all change based on player settings.  As long as this is documented in the contribution notes I see no problem with this.  I do not consider them "Hidden" as they are menu and remote selectable. The issue is the enabling of the menu and selection is based on a player language setting independent of Region or local of the disc. 

All the titles I have personally seen this with so far have been in relation to Japanese Audio and Menus so far.

Why should I change my default language to something other than English when I only speak English. That is to much work for the thousands of titles to check and then turn my system back to my default settings.

I think the issue is that it is assumed that an R1US release, which you said this was, will be played on an R1US player with default settings.  Under those conditions, the Japanese subs and audio will not be available.  Adding something, that is only available when you change those settings, is a tad misleading.

Since you can't include the fact that player setting have to be changed to get the Japanese subs, I would be inclined to leave it out.

Quoting Taro:

Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
No, you are not correct regarding the other languages, they are listed on the back cover are they not, Japanese is not listed. I presume they are also listed in the menus, while Japanese is not. So you would be wrong to handle the others as Easter Eggs as well. The topic is "hidden" audio, not Audio in general.

Skip

Granted, they are listed on the back cover. However the rules clearly state that the way tracks are encoded on a disc supercedes covers. I put the discs in my computer and all tracks showed up, including the Japanese ones, when using Blu-ray analysing software.

As much as I can understand that for some users it may be a bit disconcerting when they don't see those tracks in the menus (because their personal settings use a western language as main language), it doesn't take away the fact that those tracks are included on the disc. You don't need to download them seperately through BD-Live and you don't need to go to any kind of re-encoding process.

I have followed the rules to the letter, as far as I can tell. So I'll take Forget the Rest's advice and resubmit with a better, clearer explanation.

Once again, taro, your logic FAILS since this was not an issue as recently as 9 months ago, it is not covered by either the program or the Rules. You are so focused on wanting it your way, you are not taking into the ramifications of YOUR way. The best answer right now is via Easter Egg for the hidden tracks.

I always find it amusing how I really try to find a way to include data under the CURRENT system, sometimes we can create an "answer" and sometimes not, but the user response is never OK that is a reasonable right now, the answer is always great stomping of feet coupled with I want it MY way.

Skip