My answer: Larry O. Williams, Jr.

And now, I'm going to go slightly off-topic - but only slightly! I've said this a hundred times before, and I'll say it again: Ken needs to step in and set a standard for entering suffixed names. We should either always use the comma, or never use it, but not this. It makes absolutely no sense to list one actor with a comma because the balance in his credits is 6 times with comma, 4 times without, and list the next actor without a comma because he's credited without it 6 times, and only 4 times with it. It just doesn't make sense. But other than that: for almost EVERY suffixed name out there the commaless variant will render the most hits in our CLT, but they don't reflect the actual credits - it's just the large chunk of IMDb-data (their standard is not to use a comma) talking.

Only this week I encountered a user updating several as credited "Peter Menzies, Jr." entries to "Peter Menzies Jr. [Peter Menzies, Jr.]", saying in his notes:

Quote:
Changed Peter Menzies, Jr. ("credit lookup" tool results: 168 entries) in Peter Menzies Jr. ("credit lookup" tool results: 183 entries) Used credited as Peter Menzies, Jr.

And it's just not right: if you look at the CLT results, it's obvious that both variants show the exact same titles: the corrected, as credited profiles use the comma, and the old IMDb-mined batch (mostly never-looked-at profiles from smaller localities, often automatically ported over from Intervocative) uses the commaless-variant. Yet, seven out of nine people are voting for this change, so there's a serious risk this may get accepted. But it's wrong, and what worries me is the prospect of going through this for every single suffixed name out there. I'd rather concentrate on correcting data than propagating such obvious errors - which is what this is, really.

So really: we need a standard for entering suffixed names, to end these kind of debates in one fell swoop. It's pretty hard to build towards an accurate database if we can't even get such basic issues sorted out. Currently, our online database (not my local one, I assure you!) contains separate, non-linking entries for essentially ALL suffixed names out there. IMHO, that makes us the laughing stock of all cast and crew databases. This is something that really needs to be addressed!

Thanks for sharing your opinion, Skip. I reiterate that we really need to address this, though. There's an interesting thread in the general discussion forum (here) about the casual, non-forum-visiting DVDP user - well, this is another area of where DVD Profiler makes absolutely no sense to most users.

Let me paint you a picture: you buy the program, start entering your movies, and after entering a few dozen UPC's and downloading profiles, you notice that a click on "Robert Downey, Jr." doesn't show all his movies, though you're sure he appears in a few more. What appears to be the case? Part of the profiles list him as "Robert Downey Jr." (no comma), and these two entries are not linked whatsoever. Quite a few people give up at this point, but let's imagine someone who doesn't. He actually "fixes" half of those profiles, and submits these changes. Now whether he tries to add the comma to a few entries, or instead tries to remove it, he's bound to get no-votes (and I'm speaking from frequent experience here). After this, the user is utterly baffled by this seemingly inexplicable conspiracy to keep such credits from linking together, and he probably gives up on contributing completely.

Again: this is one of most basic issues of maintaining cast and crew data, and it really needs to be addressed.

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Any user has the ability to figure out the "problem" and how it should be addressed.

Of course they have that ability. Yet, we're stuck with separate, non-linking entries for essentially ANY suffixed name out there, and I for one haven't noticed a sharp decline in those superfluous entries, have you? I don't care what that says about users' ability to figure out the "problem", but I just don't see this problem solving itself. Setting a standard will solve hundreds, maybe thousands of "common name" disputes in one fell swoop, it will prevent endless ping-ponging, and IMHO getting rid of these inconsistencies will make DVDP a lot more "user-friendly" to both new and seasoned users. There's just no excuse for needlessly complicating things like this.

It obviously has nothing to do with IMDb - but if you really want to compare with others, you might ask yourself if you know of ANY good cast and crew database that has separate, non-linking entries for "Robert Downey, Jr." and "Robert Downey Jr." Linking these two variants together does not equal "bizarre things" or "inaccuracies of all sorts": it's among the very basics of maintaining cast and crew data. DVD Profiler refuses to establish this connection, and instead leaves that to the users. The least Invelos could do is give us a standard to handle them, so we can start having correct data right away. Insisting to extend the use of "the most-credited form" to the format of these suffixes just means we'll be propagating the comma-less IMDb-style variant for years to come.

Quoting T!M:

Quote:
It obviously has nothing to do with IMDb - but if you really want to compare with others, you might ask yourself if you know of ANY good cast and crew database that has separate, non-linking entries for "Robert Downey, Jr." and "Robert Downey Jr." Linking these two variants together does not equal "bizarre things" or "inaccuracies of all sorts": it's among the very basics of maintaining cast and crew data. DVD Profiler refuses to establish this connection, and instead leaves that to the users. The least Invelos could do is give us a standard to handle them, so we can start having correct data right away. Insisting to extend the use of "the most-credited form" to the format of these suffixes just means we'll be propagating the comma-less IMDb-style variant for years to come.

Very well said.  I agree 100%.  It's something that absolutely should be addressed.  Allowing a comma to unlink the data is simply absurd.

Quoting northbloke:

Quote:
It would be a lot simpler still if Profiler was simply instructed to ignore punctuation in a name. So it wouldn't matter if "Jr" or ",Jr" or ", Jr." or "Jr." were entered, they'd still link.

Upon what basis would you IGNORE puctuation.because that is the way you want it, north. It is still commonplace to use , Jr. ,Sr. whatever. So why not IF we are going to standardize, which i still don't support and never will since we have all the tools we need to deal with it, not use the punctuation. After all another databasae has already adopted the standard you want, are you wanting us to become a clone. I say IF we are to do it, we do it DIFFERENTLY.

Additionally, the MOST common type of usage in film credits, would be , Jr., while Jr is not unheard of it not all that commonplace. yet you want to do it without for what reasomn...exactly?

Also perhaps it is something that Ken could address programmatically WITHOUT changing the way we actually enter the data.

Skip

I see what you are refrring to, and i misinterpreted it, nadja.

Skip

So you're suggesting a facility for the userbase to make manual connections between names?

normaly when there is more then one credit. the TLC should solve this. In this case Larry/O./Williams, Jr. wins (maybe 2 different credits). All Rising Sun and its foreign titles credits are Larry/O./Williams, Jr.. That would make the Hunter credit: Larry/O./Williams, Jr., if that actual credit would be Larry/O./Williams Jr. that would make the DVD Profiler credit: Larry/O./Williams, Jr. [Larry/O./Williams Jr.]
You only have a problem with a status quo credit (example):
Larry/O./Williams, Jr. 2 titles (2 profiles)
Larry/O./Williams Jr. 2 titles (2 profiles)
As long as there is no status quo, one credit becomes leading.