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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Parsing chinese names, example Gong (Family name) Li (given name) |
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| Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | We have never really agreed here how to handle it. Now with the common name feature we have a new option. At the moment a lot of profiles are in reverse order since credits are taken from IMDB, others represent the as credit approach. People now start to change profiles in the 3rd way. To get a consistent database (yes Skip  ) and make the linking work we should make a decision once and for all, put it into the rules and move on. | | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unfortunately, the rules already tell us how to do it, by using the credit lookup tool to identify the most common form... That said, I don't really care which form is used, but the "as credited" approach has the straight-on advantage of not requiring any additional cultural interpretation based on nationality or national preferences, which I would not be qualified to do anyway. Of course, I want the whole parsing thing to be scrapped anyway. It serves no useful purpose other than to confuse things.  | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Patsa: Quote:
Unfortunately, the rules already tell us how to do it, by using the credit lookup tool to identify the most common form... Parsing is not taken from the screen. It depends on how users enter credited names in the first name/middle name/last name fields. Thus, if users agree on a certain kind of parsing when they enter credits, the Credit Look-up tool will follow  Quote:
That said, I don't really care which form is used, but the "as credited" approach has the straight-on advantage of not requiring any additional cultural interpretation based on nationality or national preferences, which I would not be qualified to do anyway.
It's the program itself that requires users to provide some "cultural interpretation", as it asks for first name and last name, which are usually understood as given name and family name, not just word counting. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
We have never really agreed here how to handle it. Now with the common name feature we have a new option. At the moment a lot of profiles are in reverse order since credits are taken from IMDB, others represent the as credit approach. People now start to change profiles in the 3rd way. To get a consistent database (yes Skip ) and make the linking work I think the use of a Credited As different from the Name is going to conflict with the current Credit Look-up system. Quote:
we should make a decision once and for all, put it into the rules and move on. As far as I understand, in Chinese names the first part is the surname, the second is the generation name, and the last is the given name. I think Ken should give us a rule on how to enter those names into DVDP fields. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | The field names speak for themselves.  The rules do not tell us how to parse Asian names. | | | | Last edited: by RHo |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 4,596 |
| | Posted: | | | | I enter them as I see them on-screen. If the screen credit lists Chow Yun Fat then I enter it as Chow/Yun/Fat. Afterall, the rule states to copy credits exactly as they appear on-screen. I'll let others worry about parsing...unless a rule regarding parsing of Asian names is instituted of course . | | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| | Registered: January 7, 2008 |  Posts: 30 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting 8ballMax: Quote:
I enter them as I see them on-screen. If the screen credit lists Chow Yun Fat then I enter it as Chow/Yun/Fat. In that case, if you see Chow Yun-Fat in the credits, do you enter him as Chow//Yun-Fat? If so, you now have two actors entered in your database who are both the same person. Thus, you have introduced bad data. Hurray! This is what is causing so many issues for those of us who have multiple Asian movies in our collections. I have 5 different entries for Chow Yun-Fat in my database. If I want to find all the movies I have with that actor, I have to get pretty creative in my searches. If I watch Hard Boiled, and think, "You know, I'd really like to watch another movie with Chow Yun-Fat in it!", I'd like to open my DVDP, click on him in the movie cast list, and see what else I have on hand! Thus, the need for consistency. Enter it exactly as on screen in "Credited As", but we need some consistency in how these names get entered in the parsed name fields. Quoting 8ballMax: Quote:
Afterall, the rule states to copy credits exactly as they appear on-screen. I'll let others worry about parsing...unless a rule regarding parsing of Asian names is instituted of course . I think the rules state to use the credit lookup tool in cases like this, where there is debate over how the name should be entered. The credit lookup tool is our current solution, though it is not perfect since it doesn't address parsing or cultural issues. But at least it provides some amount of consistency to the data. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | The problem you seem to be overlooking is that in the program setup, it gives you an option to display names as First name/Middle name/Last name or in reverse order of Last name/First name/Middle name. Users who typically write names in Surname/Given name fashion are going to have their program set up as Last name/First name/Middle name option. If these users then puts in the credits in as credited, you are going to have names put in reverse order, otherwise the names look backwards to them. For Asian profiles R2 Japan, as well as R0, R3 Korea and Hong Kong, what rights do R1 American and R2 European users have in dictating how those names in those profiles have to fit their customs without looking like hypocrits?
That's why I started the thread on proposal to parse Asian names. Unfortunately, we have not heard anything official one way or the other. Way I see it, this is Ken's version of don't ask, don't tell. Most of those profiles that have Yun-fat Chow are profiles of Asian versions of his DVDs. Since changes in those profiles do not effect R1 and R2 users, they tend to be left alone. | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 4,596 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting noodleboy: Quote:
Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote:
I enter them as I see them on-screen. If the screen credit lists Chow Yun Fat then I enter it as Chow/Yun/Fat.
In that case, if you see Chow Yun-Fat in the credits, do you enter him as Chow//Yun-Fat? If so, you now have two actors entered in your database who are both the same person. Thus, you have introduced bad data. Hurray! This is what is causing so many issues for those of us who have multiple Asian movies in our collections. I have 5 different entries for Chow Yun-Fat in my database. If I want to find all the movies I have with that actor, I have to get pretty creative in my searches. If I watch Hard Boiled, and think, "You know, I'd really like to watch another movie with Chow Yun-Fat in it!", I'd like to open my DVDP, click on him in the movie cast list, and see what else I have on hand! Thus, the need for consistency. Enter it exactly as on screen in "Credited As", but we need some consistency in how these names get entered in the parsed name fields.
Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote:
Afterall, the rule states to copy credits exactly as they appear on-screen. I'll let others worry about parsing...unless a rule regarding parsing of Asian names is instituted of course .
I think the rules state to use the credit lookup tool in cases like this, where there is debate over how the name should be entered. The credit lookup tool is our current solution, though it is not perfect since it doesn't address parsing or cultural issues. But at least it provides some amount of consistency to the data. As it stands right now, the Credit Lookup Tool is only perpetuating bad data, IMO. The only way the Credit Lookup Tool will be of any use for us is for there to be a total revamp of the credits in the database...there's just far too much IMdb data in there and it will take years for it to get corrected at the rate it's going now. Perhaps Ken could enlist a small army of volunteers from each region and divy out titles to input the credits "as credited". Perhaps within the year we'll actually have a tool that would be of great value. I'd gladly volunteer to work on titles in my collection if it gets us any closer to this end. | | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 4,596 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting xradman: Quote:
what rights do R1 American and R2 European users have in dictating how those names in those profiles have to fit their customs without looking like hypocrits? You place the blame on R1 American and R2 European users? How about placing the blame where it truely belongs? With those that write the film's credits in the first place  . My lack of knowledge in the parsing of Asian names does not make me a hypocrit...just ignorant . | | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| | Registered: January 7, 2008 | | Posts: 30 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting 8ballMax: Quote:
As it stands right now, the Credit Lookup Tool is only perpetuating bad data, IMO. The only way the Credit Lookup Tool will be of any use for us is for there to be a total revamp of the credits in the database...there's just far too much IMdb data in there and it will take years for it to get corrected at the rate it's going now. Perhaps Ken could enlist a small army of volunteers from each region and divy out titles to input the credits "as credited". Perhaps within the year we'll actually have a tool that would be of great value. I'd gladly volunteer to work on titles in my collection if it gets us any closer to this end. Why not start now? I know I am! I've started with my cast list and am finding actors who have more than one entry formatted in different ways. I'm then picking those DVDs as a starting point. I'm verifying that they are either entered as credited if that is the common name, or I am changing the entry to the as credited name if it isn't, or I am utilizing the "Credited As" feature if the common name is not what they are listed as in the actual credits. When I have done that for all of the DVDs I own with a given actor, I will have cleaned up my own database, while at the same time I will have fixed a small part of the online database AND the credit lookup tool, if it was wrong! Plus, since I'm going through the credits on those films, I am also finding other incorrect data! Everybody wins! Mind you, this has proven to be really time consuming since one of the ones I started with was Paul Reubens.  Especially since there were virtually no credits entered for the Pee-Wee's Playhouse collections. I got the first one done, but have yet to start on the second! |
| | Registered: January 7, 2008 | | Posts: 30 |
| | Posted: | | | | xradman, if I am understanding you correctly, then the same argument could be stated for people in Asian countries. If they use the option to list names in reverse order, then should we R1 and R2 Americans and Europeans insist that they reverse the way our names are entered so they appear in the correct order? That would just be silly.
Personally, I don't care if I see Johnny Depp, or Depp Johnny. I just want to see a standard. The same goes for Chow Yun-Fat or Yun-Fat Chow. The current rules state to use the credit lookup tool. Since the names we see on the screen are Johhny Depp and Chow Yun-Fat, then that's the way they are supposed to be entered. Yes, that means that, technically, the Asian name would be entered with the family name as the first name. But until a software update or rule change addresses that issue, that is what the rules state to do. To top it off, we have to remember that nobody is familiar with all cultures or actors. Taking this out of the Asian context and just using a neutral non-culture, f I get a movie with Xiqasoapot Foboeazig Pwescta listed as an actor, how am I to know which way he/she would want that entered? There is no way. All I can do is enter it as I see it on the screen and as it fits into the application. This will also keep it in line with the credit lookup tool. If the majority of users are using the application the same way, then the data will remain clean. Even if a subset of users know that Xiqasoapot is that actor's mother's maden name, and NOT his first name, due to the way the culture uses names, it won't matter. The majority of users AND the rules, will back up having the name as Xiqasoapot/Foboeazig/Pwescta. If the rules are followed, the data will be consistent and the database will work properly.
It is unfortunate that there isn't a better way to address these sorts of issues at present. I'd much rather see that names are truly correct rather than simply consistent. But, as things stand, I just don't see that happening. A rule change or a software update seems to be the only way this can be fixed. Until then, I'd rather see the current rules followed so that we have consistent data.
The people entering this data should not be expected to have to interpret it. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting 8ballMax: Quote:
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
what rights do R1 American and R2 European users have in dictating how those names in those profiles have to fit their customs without looking like hypocrits?
You place the blame on R1 American and R2 European users? How about placing the blame where it truely belongs? With those that write the film's credits in the first place . My lack of knowledge in the parsing of Asian names does not make me a hypocrit...just ignorant . As I have noted many time, I agree completely with 8Ball, or blame the actors since they have a contract with the filmmaker's in every case on how they should be credited in the film. They KNOW they are going to be credited in a Hollywood or Hollywood-style manner. They also know that their Asian name is "handled" differently, it would be an easy thing for them to contractually require that their name be handled in way that is consistent with the REST of the credits in a film, which probably includes many "English" actors...yet they don't. It does not seem to upset Chow Yun Fat that his name is handled and thus also read backwards from his culture. If it doesn't upset the actor...one wonders.  Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting noodleboy: Quote:
xradman, if I am understanding you correctly, then the same argument could be stated for people in Asian countries. If they use the option to list names in reverse order, then should we R1 and R2 Americans and Europeans insist that they reverse the way our names are entered so they appear in the correct order? That would just be silly.
Personally, I don't care if I see Johnny Depp, or Depp Johnny. I just want to see a standard. The same goes for Chow Yun-Fat or Yun-Fat Chow. The current rules state to use the credit lookup tool. Since the names we see on the screen are Johhny Depp and Chow Yun-Fat, then that's the way they are supposed to be entered. Yes, that means that, technically, the Asian name would be entered with the family name as the first name. But until a software update or rule change addresses that issue, that is what the rules state to do. To top it off, we have to remember that nobody is familiar with all cultures or actors. Taking this out of the Asian context and just using a neutral non-culture, f I get a movie with Xiqasoapot Foboeazig Pwescta listed as an actor, how am I to know which way he/she would want that entered? There is no way. All I can do is enter it as I see it on the screen and as it fits into the application. This will also keep it in line with the credit lookup tool. If the majority of users are using the application the same way, then the data will remain clean. Even if a subset of users know that Xiqasoapot is that actor's mother's maden name, and NOT his first name, due to the way the culture uses names, it won't matter. The majority of users AND the rules, will back up having the name as Xiqasoapot/Foboeazig/Pwescta. If the rules are followed, the data will be consistent and the database will work properly.
It is unfortunate that there isn't a better way to address these sorts of issues at present. I'd much rather see that names are truly correct rather than simply consistent. But, as things stand, I just don't see that happening. A rule change or a software update seems to be the only way this can be fixed. Until then, I'd rather see the current rules followed so that we have consistent data.
The people entering this data should not be expected to have to interpret it. I don't have a problem with people wanting Johnny Depp and Chow Yun Fat to appear that way in the credits for PoTC 3. But answer me this. Chow Yun Fat has appeared in ~100 Hong Kong features prior to coming to Hollywood. Should R1 or R2 users change all the names backwards on my R0 or R3 Hong Kong title where all the actors are Chinese so that they can have Chow Yun Fat the way they want? Skip likes to bring up contracts and way names appears on credits. However, I would venture to guess that Skip has never seen a Asian film contract. For those of you who are still not clear as to what this is all about, I have attached screen shots of some credits in Asian films. Please note that there are no English or roman alphabets anywhere on the screen. This is from Japanese movie Azumi (2003)  This is from Hong Kong movie The Five Venoms (1978)  and This is from Korean movie Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (2005)  I welcome anyone who wants to credit these "as credited" or just enter it using the current credit rules to tell us exactly how we should go about doing it. | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Your on your own on that, xradman. But then that is a fairly typical Asian credit which has not been translated to Hollywoodese. I would not begin to be so PRESUMPTIVE as to try to tell you how deal with that, conversely....
In fact I just did an audit on a French film and guess what I did, I applied the Rules that for Cast data and made corrections to the Cast data based on that data, no translation to English other than roles which were not credited. That included all appropriate diacriticals that were included in the Credit listing.
I have a few films, not many, but a few which have credits such as you are showing, I obviously can't copy that data...yet anyway. But I would not attempt to Contribute data such as that via translation. I would leave that to someone with that skill set, my data would be my own. I still agree with 8Ball and believe you are arguing the wrong battle with wrong people.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Your on your own on that, xradman. But then that is a fairly typical Asian credit which has not been translated to Hollywoodese. I would not begin to be so PRESUMPTIVE as to try to tell you how deal with that, conversely....
Skip Exactly. That's why the only time I have a problem with name parsing is when people try to apply western based rules for entirely eastern region eastern movies on eastern DVDs (like above). I think I have stated this in the past. I don't mess with any R1 DVDs that have occassional Asian actors. However, conversely, I don't like it when people come along and reverse all the names on my R3 Korean DVDs. However, again, after I contribute a new profile the first time, I lock my profile and do not participate in any ping pong. I got tired of that long time ago. If Ken ever comes out with a workable rule one way or another, I may work up the energy, but until then, only time I contribute something is if there's nothing to start with. | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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