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TV Series Crew Credit Question
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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THis is the first time I've run across this situation, but it may not be all that unique - so maybe someone can tell me how to handle it.

I'm profiling the first season of Picket Fences.  In the first 13 episodes, Alice West is credited "Producer."  From the 14th episode through the end of the season, she's credited as "Senior Producer."

Normally, if I ran across the title "Senior Producer" I would NOT add it to the crew list as it is not one of the recognized roles.  However, in this case it looks as if Ms West's role was elevated from mere "Producer" to "Senior Producer."

How should I handle it?  Call her "Producer" for all 22 episodes of the season?  Or only show her at all for the 13 episodes where she's credited as "Producer" and not for those where she's credited as "Senior Producer?"  (I don't like polls, so I'm not making this one.)
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
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DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBehemot
Registered: Aug. 23, 2004
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I would not credit her in the episodes where she has a "Senior Producer" credit. TV series have a lot of weird production credits, like Supervising Producer and Consulting Producer, and none of these should be credited in Profiler either.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Senior Producer is not on our list of Credits, Ken

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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I would credit her as 'producer' for all 22 episodes of the season, because it indeed seems like some kind of "promotion". I for one would find it it strange that such a promotion (i.e. getting a "heavier" role in the process) would lead to her losing her credit in DVD Profiler. But I'll happily admit that I tend to list supervising producers as well, so maybe it's just me. I do that because I feel it's pretty much the same as what we do with the art department: when there are credits for "art directors" and a "supervising art director", we enter them both. Why wouldn't this translate to producers? But again: that's just my personal preference, and I'll keep it local if I have to. I'd never enter a consulting producer, though...
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Senior Producer is not on our list of Credits, Ken

Not everything is adressed in the crew credits table (nor could everything possibly fit in it). For example: as has been pointed out a long time ago, the "credited as" column doesn't even allow us to enter people credited as "art director" - only "supervising art directors" are allowed into DVD Profiler at this time. Nonetheless, there's absoluty no-one out there that actually follows that "rule", including yourself. This is the exact same thing, so it's not completely unthinkable that we'd make the same exception. I repeat that I'm perfectly willing to keep my preference in this matter local if I have to, but just saying "so-and-so is not on our list of credits" clearly isn't the answer to everything. I prefer to use some common sense, certainly when dealing with the different terminology often used in TV show credits (something the credits table doesn't cater well for at all: think about the need for a "creator"/"created by" credit).

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Senior Producer is not on our list of Credits, Ken

It's not our list of "incorrect" credits as well, Skip. Credits like "associate producer" and "co-producer" are specifically named as "incorrect", but there's no mention at all of "supervising producer" or "senior producer", or anything like it. Given that the crew table is clearly not set up to deal with the terminology used in TV show credits, I feel there's enough room for us to apply some common sense. Try not thinking about the rules for a moment, but just try and see the logic in the original question: why should Alice West lose her credit in 'Picket Fences' when she gets promoted from "producer" to "senior producer"? Where's the logic in that?
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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If it is not in our list, Tim, it is NOT for you to decide that it should be entered. You can request that Ken make the added change od some other modification to the Rules. But if you want to list it, then KEEP IT LOCALLY.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
If it is not in our list, Tim, it is NOT for you to decide that it should be entered. You can request that Ken make the added change od some other modification to the Rules. But if you want to list it, then KEEP IT LOCALLY.

Just for argument's sake, I could say the same to you about entering "art director" credits. Can't you see that?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTigiHof
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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T!M, as much as I respect you as a fellow contributor of TV series cast&crew data (there are not too many of us), I would kindly ask you to stick to the rules when it comes to the production credits.

Skip is right with this, it is not only a rule but also forum consensus to not list "Supervising Producers" or "Senior Producers" in the profiles. If is not uncommon that someone is credited as "Producer" for the first half of the season and "Supervising Producer" for the second. I have absolutely no problem to list him for only half the episodes in this case (happened just yesterday when I uploaded the credits for "Friday Night Lights - Season 1"). And why should I ? In most cases, the list of production credits for TV series is long enough anyway. 
Michael
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I have to agree with the others and say not to include it.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting TigiHof:
Quote:
T!M, as much as I respect you as a fellow contributor of TV series cast&crew data (there are not too many of us), I would kindly ask you to stick to the rules when it comes to the production credits.

Skip is right with this, it is not only a rule but also forum consensus to not list "Supervising Producers" or "Senior Producers" in the profiles. If is not uncommon that someone is credited as "Producer" for the first half of the season and "Supervising Producer" for the second. I have absolutely no problem to list him for only half the episodes in this case (happened just yesterday when I uploaded the credits for "Friday Night Lights - Season 1"). And why should I ? In most cases, the list of production credits for TV series is long enough anyway. 

I already answered this in my first post in this thread: that I'm perfectly willing to keep my preference local if I have to. As for the rest:

- I don't believe this is covered by the rules. Again, I feel that by not listing any kind of these credits in the "incorrect" column of the credits table, Ken gave us some leeway to deal with the different terminology used in TV shows. Also, this isn't any different from how we treat the art director credits - despite what's in the rules!

- I also don't believe there is a forum consensus on this. Sure, a few users may have declared this as "the truth" so often (and so loud) that some people are starting to believe it, but as far as I remember there certainly isn't a consensus. In fact: in my experience throughout the various regions and localities, I daresay that a vast majority of the users DOES enter these credits. I'd guess this is mostly a result from how we deal with (supervising) art directors - most users (and we're not talking about thirty forum regulars here) seem to expand that line of reasoning to producers - and rightly so, IMHO.

- Depending on the type of show and the locality of the profile, I may or may not submit these. If I don't, we don't have a problem. If I do, and someone manages to remove them, I won't try to add them back in (and have never done so). I'm absolutely sure that I have even voted 'yes' to certain contributions made by yourself that, among other things, removed such credits, so I don't think we have a problem at all.

All in all I'm not so impressed by the arguments against this: I feel the rules gives us more than enough leeway to deal with these, and I also don't see a consensus among the users. Although I obviously agree with the fact that the list of credits is usually long enough, I don't think that's a really sound argument. Again, if someone is "promoted" halfway through a season from a "producer" to a "senior producer", why should that mean that he/she should lose his/her credit in DVD Profiler? I really don't see the logic in that... "Because the credits lists are long enough already" doesn't really cut it for me.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTigiHof
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
All in all I'm not so impressed by the arguments against this: I feel the rules gives us more than enough leeway to deal with these, and I also don't see a consensus among the users. Although I obviously agree with the fact that the list of credits is usually long enough, I don't think that's a really sound argument.

As I see it, there can be no "sound argument" for or against entering Supervising Producers - simply because it has nothing to do with logic. It is merely a matter of preference.

Unlike you, I do see a consensus among the users. Unfortunately I couldn't find a poll about this, but I remember very well that this question came up several times in this forum and was always answered with "No, we don't list Supervising Producers" (and it wasn't always answered by Skip ). That is good enough for me.
Michael
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Just for argument's sake, I could say the same to you about entering "art director" credits. Can't you see that?


But "Art Director" is a Crew Role name itself, so it would seem to me pretty nitpickish to quibble about it just because it's not listed in the Credited As column. 
For clarity sake we could ask Ken to list "Art Director" there too, but I think it's plain obvious that it can contributed.
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantpauls42
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:


- I also don't believe there is a forum consensus on this.

All in all I'm not so impressed by the arguments against this: I feel the rules gives us more than enough leeway to deal with these, and I also don't see a consensus among the users.


It seems that all the responses in this thread have said the same - keep this local. So I'm not sure why you keep saying there is no consensus.

Also, there is no room for common sense. This was removed by rule 14B sub section 28 - "All common sense must be left at the front desk along with any porn magazines or pictures of naked breasts (which can cause the end of Society). Machine guns and air to air missiles are acceptable to be carried at all times". 
Paul
 Last edited: by pauls42
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Just for argument's sake, I could say the same to you about entering "art director" credits. Can't you see that?


But "Art Director" is a Crew Role name itself, so it would seem to me pretty nitpickish to quibble about it just because it's not listed in the Credited As column. 
For clarity sake we could ask Ken to list "Art Director" there too, but I think it's plain obvious that it can contributed.

I agree, of course. Hence the "Just for argument's sake"...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Just for argument's sake, I could say the same to you about entering "art director" credits. Can't you see that?


But "Art Director" is a Crew Role name itself, so it would seem to me pretty nitpickish to quibble about it just because it's not listed in the Credited As column. 
For clarity sake we could ask Ken to list "Art Director" there too, but I think it's plain obvious that it can contributed.

I agree, of course. Hence the "Just for argument's sake"...


Fair enough. But my point is that Art Director and Senior Producer or Supervising Producer are different pair of shoes. 

I am pretty sure that Art Director can be contributed. As to Senior Producer or Supervising Producer I would be doubtful, to say the least 
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
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Thanks, all.  You confirmed what I thought I should do, namely not credit her where she's shown as "Senior Producer."

Without personal knowledge of David Kelley's production company, it's impossible to say whether her elevation to "Senior" producer makes her the boss of the other two producers, or whether she may have stopped contributing all together the elevated title as an "honorary" one.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
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